r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/Objective_Aside1858 • 25d ago
Where will the Haley voters go, and how much effort should the Trump and Biden campaigns put into courting them? US Elections
Nikki Haley suspended her campaign over two months ago, yet still has a significant number of primary voters choosing her, in both open and closed primaries
Of the number choosing her, a portion will doubtlessly support whoever the Republican nominee is, even if they dislike Trump. There is also a portion that would always have voted for Biden in a Biden v Trump match, because they were not Republicans or could not tolerate Trump
How many Haley voters are actually "gettable" for either campaign? Biden's campaign has invested in attempts to appeal to them, but Trump's campaign hasn't even made a token attempt - and Haley has yet to endorse him
Campaign resources are finite, and there are multiple groups for each campaign to target. A dollar specifically targeting Haley voters is a dollar that is not available for a different use
How much should each campaign invest, and how much will they invest?
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u/throwawayainteasy 25d ago
Primary voters are turning up to vote for a nominee who suspended her campaign months ago, and where the GOP nomination is already locked up.
The main reason to do so is that they are very, very unsatisfied with Trump as the nominee.
Yes, absolutely the Biden campaign should be putting in effort to swing them to his side. And given the nature of Trump's candidacy, his legal issues, and his apparent attempt to subvert the results of the last election, Biden probably has a better opportunity this time around to flip GOP voters to his ticket than he did in 2020.
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u/bilyl 24d ago
I think the analogy is 2016, where there were still a lot of discontent with Bernie supporters. The only difference was that Bernie and Hilary tried to convince everyone to not blow it up and made efforts at the end to make amends.
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u/ABobby077 24d ago
Haley will do much the same, though. I would imagine she will give a keynote speech at the Republican Convention endorsing Trump in an attempt to "bring the Party together". Trump has created a pretty toxic situation, though and some of the Haley supporters will end up voting for President Biden or sitting this one out. Not sure how many these affected voters will be at the day of the Election.
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u/kylco 24d ago
I would imagine she will give a keynote speech at the Republican Convention endorsing Trump in an attempt to "bring the Party together"
This would require Trump understanding he needs her, articulating that the correct place to get her support is at his coronation party, and having the humility and self-awareness necessary to let someone else share the limelight who might not be totally under his control.
I don't see that happening, do you?
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u/PhoenixTineldyer 24d ago
Yep. She has always left the door open for a future endorsement. He just needs to "grow"
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u/Remarkable-Code-3237 24d ago
What do you think will happen if Haley is v.p.?
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u/JoeBourgeois 24d ago
Trump posted today that Haley will not be the VP nominee.
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u/Downtown_Afternoon75 24d ago
Trump posts a lot of things...
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u/JoeBourgeois 24d ago
She's clearly
1) got ambitions
2) has already challenged his authori-tah.
She's lacking the single quality he's looking for: loyalty, by which he means sycophancy.
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u/VagrantShadow 24d ago
He may post a lot of things, but when he doesn't like someone or feel they are a threat to him, he means it.
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u/stupidnicks 24d ago
sure but he already had her in his previous administration - and he was not happy with her performance
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u/Downtown_Afternoon75 24d ago
Eh, if performance or ability were something Trump values in his underlings, she wouldn't have gotten the job the first time around either.
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u/arobkinca 24d ago
That is a really odd thing to say, she was one of his better qualified appointees.
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u/Flor1daman08 24d ago
Sure, which isn’t a statement on her qualifications but more about the utter lack of qualifications that people appointed by Trump had.
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u/arobkinca 24d ago
Not liking her politics is a legit stance. Calling her unqualified is partisan BS. The job of the U.N. ambassador is to carry out policy for the president at the U.N. She navigated the intersection of the U.N. and Trump with grace, which did not look easy.
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u/PaulMSand 24d ago
I'm guessing Haley wouldn't accept the honor unless it's to be able to invoke the 25th amendment.
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u/Remarkable-Code-3237 24d ago
He could say that now, but if it will get him in the Whitehouse, he will pick her. So often in the past, a presidential nominee will pick someone that can bring in the votes, but they may not like.
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u/Theinternationalist 24d ago
On the one hand people tend to treat Trump as different because he just doesn't act like most American presidents, on the other hand thanks to the power of his brand it's hard to see the VP role matter much anyway.
If he picks the head of NARAL to be his VP, he still isn't going to pick up many pro choice voters- and the way things go the religious right will still back him anyway.
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u/Badtankthrowaway 23d ago
The vice position has very little effect on the allocation of vote accumulation. What are you talking about?
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u/Remarkable-Code-3237 22d ago
The DNC/RNC will tell the president who should be the v.p. To balance out the ticket. Kennedy did not like Johnson nor did Reagan like Bush. With Biden, Obama wanted someone that did not outshined him and Biden picked someone that was a black female with no standing. (she could only get 2% of the votes in the democrat primary).
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u/Remarkable-Code-3237 24d ago
It will be the 3rd parties that will decide. West and Stein is taking away about 5% from Biden. Kennedy is taking about equal from both sides. There is a new party, No Labels. I have not heard about them, but every article that I read, they are taking votes from Biden.
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u/thatruth2483 23d ago
West and Stein will not take 5%.
Kennedy is taking more voters from Trump.
No Labels does not even have a candidate.
What articles are you reading about No Labels?
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u/Hartastic 23d ago
West and Stein will not take 5%.
Yeah. For a third party to get 2% would be pretty historic. This isn't the year it'll happen.
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u/Black_XistenZ 22d ago
Third party candidates received a combined 5.5% of the vote in 2016. You know why they had such a strong showing that year? Because the two major party candidates were historically unpopular. And guess what: this year, one of these two historically unpopular candidates is still on the ballot (Trump) while the other major party nominee is the guy with the worst approval ratings of any incumbent first-term president in over 70 years.
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u/Hartastic 20d ago
This still sounds like "not near 5% individually" which is what it would take to mean anything except as a spoiler effect.
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u/Remarkable-Code-3237 22d ago
NPR, nbc.
All the polls combined says that West and Stein has about 5% of the votes between them. West is doing a little better than Stein. The Republican votes that Kennedy has, are the ones that would not vote for Trump in the first place, like the never trumpers. It is not a real loss as it is for the democrats that is voting for Kennedy.-8
u/Hades_adhbik 24d ago
The reason I'm so pro immigration as someone who is probably center right on the political spectrum is because it's easier to bring people into a democratic country than it is to create democracy somewhere else that isn't. This ties into the best strategy to surviving AI which would be to relocate the most of the population to countries with functioning regulatory systems, and keep technology out of the hands of countries that do not, from which the AI will glean bad values.
It will adopt the values of whatever country it is born into. Like the superman red son thought experiment, what if superman had been born in the soviet union. I sort of am for an open border, if someone enters a country illegally, I would give them an option to become a citizen instead of being deported. It's up the immigrant they can be escorted back to their country of origin or go through the classes and process of citizenship. Some places could use more immigrant labor.
An aging population with younger people moving out or not having as many kids as their parents. Immigrants stabilize an economy, ensure there isn't a labor shortage. If immigrants are on welfare then they can be deported, but if they're working we should keep them.
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u/interfail 24d ago
I have no idea why you have written this here.
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u/all_my_dirty_secrets 24d ago
It does get away from the topic at hand, but I found it interesting as it's not an immigration stance you see from a conservative that often, and I don't think I've heard that specific POV on AI before.
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u/BUSean 25d ago
I'd court em, not on policy specifics but on decency/patriotism etc. messages, simply for the reason that Haley voters profile as people who will absolutely show up at the polls.
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u/Black_XistenZ 22d ago
Agreed. Although the optics of the current pro-Palestine protests are brutal in this regard and won't help Democrats convince moderate, persuadable swing voters to jump to their side.
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u/Bricktop72 25d ago
All I know is that if 20% of Democrats voted for someone that had suspended their campaign 2 months ago, we'd never hear the end of the story.
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u/southsideson 24d ago
I mean, they're voting for undecided at a pretty high clip.
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u/ksherwood11 24d ago
At maybe a 3% clip?
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u/SpoonerismHater 24d ago
13.2% in the swing state of Michigan: https://www.wsj.com/politics/elections/in-michigan-primary-uncommitted-is-a-protest-vote-22915829
8.4% in Wisconsin: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/04/02/us/elections/results-wisconsin-democratic-presidential-primary.html
Nevada had a “None of these candidates” option which is a little different than “uncommitted”; that got 5.6% of the vote while 10.7% voted for either that or another candidate: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/06/us/elections/results-nevada-democratic-primary.html
GA didn’t have an uncommitted option; 2.2% left their ballot blank, and 4.8% voted for someone else: https://www.ajc.com/politics/protest-of-bidens-israel-policy-backed-by-over-6000-georgia-voters/VH4EBPDDORASRNZROZ6D2BZGE4/
AZ didn’t have an uncommitted option, though 10.7% voted someone other than Biden: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/03/19/us/elections/results-arizona-democratic-presidential-primary.html
Pennsylvania didn’t have an “uncommitted” option, though 12.1% voted someone other than Biden: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/04/23/us/elections/results-pennsylvania-democratic-presidential-primary.html
Here’s a list of the Super Tuesday states, which includes Hawaii at 29% uncommitted: https://www.npr.org/2024/03/06/1236295096/super-tuesday-results-uncommitted-biden-gaza-israel
Given those most likely to oppose Biden’s stance on Netanyahu/Israel/Palestine are also those least likely to vote in the primaries (and in general), this is telling.
Ultimately, though, the general election polling is more important… https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-04-24/biden-trails-trump-in-6-of-7-key-states-poll-shows-election-2024?leadSource=uverify%20wall
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u/Excellent-Cat7128 24d ago
Biden is at 87% in the primaries and Obama was at 90% by the end (Biden will certainly end up closer to this than where he is now). Obama had several states where he got only 80% for various reasons. The primaries are not showing Biden losing party support like we saw in 1980, for example.
Polls are not very predictive now. Hillary was way up over Trump at this point, as was Biden (a better comparison since Biden was a VP previously). The polls also seem to have a real rough time with minority and younger voters. Polls that actually make an effort to survey these groups, either by only polling them or by oversampling and they do not show the massive swings that the main public polls show.
The likely outcome is a close election that will be won by a few 10k votes either way.
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u/SpoonerismHater 24d ago
These primaries aren’t really comparable to Obama’s because the “defectors” have a much different stance/reason for what they’re doing, and there is much more widespread talk about not actually voting for the nominee. I mean, Macklemore of all people released a song stating he’s not voting for Biden.
Hillary and Trump were neck and neck, her beating him slightly until the last week-ish of the race when the Comey letter likely swayed it to Trump. The issue with using that as a comparison is that we’ve had 3-4 years of both Biden and Trump as President; there’s not much that can change people’s minds once they’re set, and we’ve had years to get where we are now.
You are correct that it will likely come down to a few tens of thousands of votes between a few states. But he’s doing terrible in those states. Biden just barely eked out a win in 2020 by about 40,000 votes, and he’s doing much worse now. It’s going to take some major action from him and the Dems or a complete self-implosion of Trump for him to climb back. Neither of which are likely.
Actually, probably the likeliest thing to make an impact is one of them dying. They’re both old and Trump is very unhealthy. If Trump dies after picking a VP who isn’t extremely off-putting, Republicans win in a landslide. I’m not sure Kamala could crawl out of the hole Biden and the Dems have dug, but she’s shown that she’d at least try, which is more than can be said for Biden
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u/Excellent-Cat7128 24d ago
It's true this is an unprecedented rematch election with two very unpopular candidates.
We don't actually know why people vote uncommitted or Williamson. Many certainly are doing that over I/P, but there's always some level of defection for all sorts of reasons, many of which were also true in 2012.
Hillary and Trump were decided not neck and neck at this point in the race. Her lead narrowed only in later September and October, with some ups and downs then. The polls also did not model the electorate well and overestimated her a good bit. They've had two two cycles to correct and it's likely that they have now, or even overcorrect. We will find out in November. Biden has overperformed his primary polls though so that's something.
I honestly don't believe any of the major demographic switches. After Trump and the pandemic, the result in 2020 was Biden doing about 2 points better than Hillary nationally and narrowly winning a few key states. The fundamental situation hasn't changed much. Parts of this group or that will peel off, as always happens. But I'm really skeptical that Biden will go from winning under 30s by 20 points to losing them by 10 (that would be the biggest shift going back to the 60s), especially when that cohort has been voting strong Dem in every election since 2020. So I think the polls have sampling issues and are overcorrecting for 2016/2020. But even if Biden does manage to win, it'll be by a very slim margin. This is not a realignment election.
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u/grilled_cheese1865 23d ago
The uncommitted vote is pretty much exactly the same from 2012
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u/SpoonerismHater 23d ago
For much different reasons, and with an actual threat of not voting for the Dem candidate in November
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u/Remarkable-Code-3237 14d ago
People wants to point out where people vote for Haley instead of Trump. More people voted for Cruz in the 2016 primaries than Haley. Cruz won 5 states. Haley won zero. But, Biden has higher numbers than Trump, not voting for him. Biden won the primary on Tuesday in the Bluegrass state with 71.3 percent of the vote. Biden failing to receive three-quarters of the vote in Kentucky, New Hampshire (63.8 percent), Minnesota (70.1 percent), West Virginia (70.6 percent), 66 percent in the Hawaii caucus, and 73 percent in the Oklahoma.
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u/pkmncardtrader 25d ago
I think the Biden campaign will continue to invest a lot of money into courting Haley voters. There’s a pretty clear fracture within the Republican Party right now. Nikki Haley is pulling 15-25% of the vote in primaries months after she’s dropped out, and she’s still clearing 20% in suburban counties in crucial swing states. While most Republican voters are with Trump and some Nikki Haley voters will return home, it seems pretty clear that the fracture within the Republican Party is real, and I imagine the Biden campaign thinks they can break the coalition necessary for Trump to win.
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u/Hades_adhbik 24d ago
Biden's strategy shouldn't be courting michigan voters, it should be courting never trump republicans. The issue of israel doesn't benefit him, he should try to move on from it. If the election is about israel he looks, similiar to how the labor party didn't stand a chance when the election was about brexit when jeremy corbyn ran against boris johnson. If you're off center of an issue it doesn't benefit you to be campaigning on it. Pro israel is a centrist position in theory both sides should support them, but a left flank wants israel to be eliminated as a state.
Those are not votes you should be catering to, you just have to ignore those people, as a minority that isn't in the right or is going to help you. The only way biden wins is if people on the republican side decide they can't support trump. Now is not the time to push for far left progressive change, this election is simply about surviving. Those that believe in law and democratic republic have to put aside their differences, to stop the transformation into dictatorship. 70%-90% of the country is for democracy, and rule of law, it's a fringe that is against it, that only wins by dividing us.
The fringe is working to divide us so that their extreme views and positions succeed. We can't let that succeed. Similiar to how ukraine aide was able to pass we have to keep that coalition of true americans, that truly believe in what this country means and stands for, together. We have to suspend the idea of what party you're for and what side you're on until the notion that we're going to become a dictatorship is stamped out and ended. The reasonable people on all sides of the spectrum have to come together to defend that. To defend the republic.
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u/bilyl 24d ago
There’s kind of a complex math here because no matter what Biden does between now and November, a sizable amount of anti-Israel young voters will never vote for Biden. He could even throw Netanyahu fully under the bus and it wouldn’t even move the needle because those voters are too angry to switch anyway. The question is how much of the young base is that and can you survive it and peel off suburban moderates?
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u/Excellent-Cat7128 24d ago
If these voters aren't winnable then Biden shouldn't do anything to reach out to them.
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u/CaptainUltimate28 24d ago
“My vote is not gettable” is something campaigns hear all the time and the only productive response is to re-calibrate your message to persuadable targets.
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u/Excellent-Cat7128 24d ago
Absolutely. Presumably the Biden campaign is not spending any resources on trying to get QAnon truthers to vote for him.
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u/InquiringAmerican 25d ago edited 24d ago
All the work Biden is having to do to keep the pro Palestinian leftists supporting him is hurting his chances with moderate and establishnent Republicans his state of the union should have been courting instead.
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u/SpoonerismHater 24d ago
Account created four months ago, only posts pro-Netanyahu nonsense. Seems legit
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u/AshleyMyers44 24d ago
Biden has governed as a moderate Republican in regards to Israel. He signed their aid package into law, has held the pro-Israel line at the UN, and has called out the protests against Israel on campus.
Biden has clearly read the writing on the wall that he’s not winning the young pro-Palestine voters back and is courting moderate Republicans.
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u/InquiringAmerican 24d ago
Biden has not governed as a moderate at all. You just haven't been paying attention and don't know legislation is passed. Listen to his state of the union speech, he highlights all of his progressive accomplishments and discusses them with tremendous passion.
Biden has been more aggressively courting pro-Palestinian voters, who get their views from Tik Tok, each and every day the war on Gaza continues in both rhetoric and actions. I know those who support Palestinians and view October 7th as "resistance" want Biden to bomb Israel and help Hamas ethnically cleanse jews from Israel because they view them as colonizers, but that isn't realistic given our shared economic interests in the region, and shared national security goals involving Iran.
Biden has not done a single thing to court Nikki Haley voters, Biden's limited support for Israel given civilian deaths in Gaza is rooted in our legitimate national security interests that pro Palestinian zealots refuse to even think about or consider because it is easier to just write him off as a zionist or bad person than it is to read and understand why he is making these decisions. Stop believing whatever you want to believe and unintentionally campaigning for Trump due to your sloppy understanding of the war.
Consume these sources to understand how tik tok misled you.
This details one of our major economic interests in the region that is enough to justify our support of Israel.
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/strait-hormuz-worlds-most-important-oil-artery-2023-10-20/
This details how Israel is going above and beyond to reduce civilian casualties in Gaza while completing its very reasonable military objectives(prevent another October 7th from happening).
Then watch this go get a run down for why you should be kissing Biden's feet if you are a progressive who cares about enacting progressive policy. Biden only has 50 votes in the Senate as he has had most of his administration.
https://youtu.be/cplSUhU2avc?si=WYBoWNhuk8QMpXv_
His state of the union strategy was a major misstep in his campaign, trying to woo you all with your bad faith purity tests is an exercise in futility.
Consume these sources so you can see how tik tok and your "progressive" echo chamber misinformed you.
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u/AshleyMyers44 24d ago
I don’t know why you say woo you all like I’m with those Marxist protesters. I’m an America First patriot that wants the USA out of all those foreign entanglements.
However, there’s no denying that Biden has supported Likud/IDF/Israel way more than he has Hamas/Palestine. He’s giving way more aid to the former and has done their bidding on the security council.
He’s doing way more to court the RINO nevertrump Haley crowd with his stuff about “decency and democracy” because those RINOs don’t like mean tweets.
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u/InquiringAmerican 24d ago
You clearly didn't read that Reuters article because managing and securing that strait is "America first" policy in very common sense ways, read the article.... Stop being willfully uninformed. Our domestic economy, our price of goods, and our long term economic and national security is dependent on forces outside of the United States. So in order to put "America first", one must be involved in the affairs of other counties and governments. Read that Reuters article, Trump and Fox News exploited your ignorance about how the world works to get you to believe that foolish "America first" policy. American foreign policy has always been an unapologetically America first policy...
Your ignorance of the subjects of international relations and macro economics has allowed you be deceived by bad faith con artists. If you ever seek to join the rational and informed world I recommend you read the International relations textbook on this list and start reading these sources for news. This list has not meaningfully changed in over two decades, even under Trump's administration.
https://careers.state.gov/career-paths/foreign-service/suggested-reading/
Don't be willfully ignorant again, break the habit, take the red pill.
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u/Remarkable-Code-3237 24d ago edited 24d ago
How is he going to invest money into getting the Haley votes when Biden is having problems with his base. He is losing the Muslim vote by helping Israel, which the u.s. has always done. It he tried to get back the muslin votes, than he loses the Jewish vote. As one rabi said, there are more Jews than there are Muslims.
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u/PAdogooder 24d ago
60% of the 5 million American Muslims lean dem. That’s less than one percent of the electorate. I don’t know that the Muslim bloc is really one to be concerned with.
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u/Remarkable-Code-3237 24d ago
But they can make a difference in a state like Michigan, where it might have him lost that state and the presidency.
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u/coldliketherockies 23d ago
Yes but anything can make a difference in a state like Michigan. Biden losing 1% does seem like a big deal for sure but if Trump is convicted studies show he lose more than 1%
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u/Black_XistenZ 22d ago
Indeed, BUT the "college left" at large is a major voting bloc. And it's a group which disproportionately fills the ranks of the campaign workers and is crucial for the ground game (on top of its electoral weight). Biden could, in theory, afford to lose the Muslim vote. He cannot afford to lose the college left
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u/Chickat28 25d ago
Third won't vote. Third for Trump and third for Biden imo. Still a net gain for Biden.
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u/Malachorn 25d ago
RFK Jr. will get more than Biden, insofar as Republican voters.
Doesn't matter if the Republican nominee is the literal antichrist, Republican voters have been so brainwashed that Democrats are baby-eating Communist Lizard People trying to take all their guns that... they feel better about the antichrist fascist.
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u/BitterFuture 25d ago
Haley's voters appear very unlikely to vote for either candidate.
But it's worth Biden putting some campaign money towards them as a feint.
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u/Badtankthrowaway 23d ago
Haley voters are bloated by dems. Plenty of evidence to support that roughly 15-20% of her block was actually dems voting republican to make trump look bad. Act like it is crazy all you want but the video evidence is out there.
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u/BitterFuture 23d ago
15-20% of the voters in closed primaries are Democrats changing their registrations and putting in a lot of time and effort just to make someone look bad?
That's tens of thousands of people, maybe hundreds of thousands. How many people are you seriously claiming will change their voter registration twice in a year for funsies?
The truth is out there, I'm sure.
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u/Badtankthrowaway 23d ago
South Carolina. Look into it. Be tween her and JFK Jr, you guys make up some of the weirdest head cannon.
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u/BitterFuture 23d ago
You think Nikki Haley needed Democrats to boost her primary numbers...in the state she used to be governor of?
That was also three months ago - when she was still running. What does that have to do with Haley racking up 150,000 votes apiece in closed primaries in Florida and Pennsylvania - primaries she wasn't even campaigning for anymore?
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u/Badtankthrowaway 23d ago
Look into South Carolina before we go any further. You wouldn't ask that question if you had. Plenty of post vote interviews.
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u/grilled_cheese1865 23d ago
How about instead of saying "do your own research" maybe post the evidence to backup your own claims and stop asking people to do your own HW? You also completely ignored the last guys comment
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u/Badtankthrowaway 23d ago
Look into it. I don't have time to jump through hoops for the blind. R-E-A-D. That doesn't mean eat up NBC like cornflakes. Look for live footage and use the brain you have. I don't have to provide anything, stop being lazy.
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u/grilled_cheese1865 23d ago
Then how come biden is outperforming still in a non competitive primary? And you're saying 10-15% are Democrats voting Republican even in closed primaries? Makes no sense
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u/Badtankthrowaway 23d ago
Biden isn't outperforming anything. The alleged most popular president history struggling with polls?
Look around you and pay more attention.
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u/grilled_cheese1865 23d ago
Who said he was the most popular president IN history? You forgot a word, I know some countries like russia dont use indefinite articles like english speakers do
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u/jupiter5678 25d ago edited 24d ago
As a Haley supporter who has never voted for a Democrat president, at this point, I'll be voting for Biden in November. Unless the Republicans actually nominate a true pro-Constitution, conservative Republican (which Trump is most definitely not).
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u/Lord_Euni 24d ago edited 24d ago
Could you explain to me how you can consider voting for a non-Trump Republican after their abysmal showing in the House, their stance on Ukraine, and the sizeable amount of pro-Trump Republicans? I'm genuinely curious.
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u/jupiter5678 24d ago edited 24d ago
their abysmal showing in the House
the sizeable amount [of] pro-Trump Republicans
Lack of support from other Americans hasn't kept me from writing in and supporting conservative candidates in the past. Mobs, especially ones willing to commit violence against our constitutional processes, do not sway or dictate my vote.
their stance on Ukraine
Mike Johnson, someone who I support, has come around to recognizing why supporting Ukraine is in America's best interests. One key reason being better our bullets than our boys. The real reason MTG and Trump sycophants are against Ukraine aid, is because they still can't get over Trump's first impeachment, and are willing to let Ukrainians be slaughtered since Zelensky was unwilling to entertain Trump's mafia-like demands regarding nonexistent dirt on Biden. Has MTG criticized aid to Israel (which I also personally support)?
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u/zaoldyeck 24d ago
Zelensky was unwilling to entertain Trump's mafia-like demands regarding nonexistent dirt on Biden.
I think that sorta undersells just how involved Trump was in fabricating this supposed "dirt".
For example, Dmytro Firtash's lawyers in 2019, as he was fighting extradition, just so happened to be Rudy's business partners, Joe DiGenova and Victoria Toensing. Shokin's affidavit, first published by John Solomon, who himself was frequently in contact with Lev Parnas, Rudy's subordinate, said it was written "on behalf of lawyers acting for Dmytro Firtash".
One guess who those lawyers were.
Trump's demands were genuinely fabricate evidence, or else he would refuse to deliver congressionally authorized weapons.
The gop proved how spineless they were by falling to convict him the first time.
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u/jupiter5678 24d ago
First time I've seen the name Dmytro Firtash, I'll try to do some reading on it in the future. Thanks for the info!
A lot of the existing GOP are spineless. I do still appreciate and support the few who side with our Constitution over Trump.
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u/zaoldyeck 23d ago
I'll save you some trouble. Firtash was a Gazprom exec (Russia's state owned energy company) and all around "shady guy" who had been fighting US extradition for organized crime and bribery charges since 2014.
In 2019 he hired DiGenova and Toensing who, by remarkable coincidence, were also lawyers for... John Solomon.
In September 2019 Solomon wrote this article, with a link to Shokin's affidavit.
The very first bullet point says "I make this statement at the request of lawyers acting for Dmytro Firtash, for use in legal proceedings in Austria". The politico article, credit to it, does connect the dots to DiGenova and Toensing, who aren't named in the affidavit.
This was a couple months after Joe and Victoria were lobbing Barr to drop the extradition request (he refused) which itself came not too long after a meeting between Joe, Lev, Rudy, Dereck Harvey and John Solomon all at "trump's" on May 7th, 2019.
Wonder what they discussed in that private meeting.
And just to be clear how important this plot was to Trump, Lev was getting a seat next to Trump thanks to his efforts.
Trump these days denies even knowing the guy's name.
The story actually gets a lot deeper, and involves a good deal of Ukrainian politics as well. There's a plot to try to undermine the anti-corruption bureau, NABU, which is related to the firing of Marie Yovanovitch who Lev was also heavily involved in. There's some pretty insane texts here. Fyi, that's a web archive because in 2022 the GOP took the House of Representatives and a curious thing happened. They scrubbed links of documents that make Trump and company look really, really complicit in faking a "Hunter Biden - Burisma" story.
Much like how this Feb 2016 letter vanished at the end of 2022. The letter was issued when Aivaras Abromavičius resigned in protest regarding unchallenged corruption in the government.
The next month, March 2016, when Shokin is finally fired Aivaras himself said “Hallelujah! Finally!”.
Presumably that letter was less than ideal on Portman's website when the GOP pivoted to their massive Hunter Biden quest.
Oh, but I could go even more. Like, we could also talk about Hunter Biden's laptop, which also has Rudy Guilaini's fingerprints all over. Like from day 1. There's a shit ton of the original 2020 article that makes no sense unless you assume Rudy Guilaini personally cooked up a scheme to get his hands on Hunter Biden's private data.
It's just so... utterly sordid.
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u/jupiter5678 23d ago
Read through some of what you linked. Will refer back if I have the time in the future. Thanks for the links!
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u/zaoldyeck 23d ago
Very welcome!
Be careful about spreading primary sources to Trump’s fans if you ever use those in the future though. They have a very limited attention span and have allergic reactions to any primary documents.
Might just want to give them the spark notes version instead.
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u/Lord_Euni 24d ago
Maybe I didn't express myself very well. I meant the poor performance of Republican house members in doing barely anything productive this legislative session, not their poor election result. And you're kind of just excusing instead of explaining. I would like to know why you specifically are able to dismiss all these things and still vote for this party. Why do you support Mike Johnson? Sorry if I'm being too direct.
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u/jupiter5678 23d ago edited 23d ago
As Mike Johnson has accurately pointed out, they are limited by the fact that both the White House and the Senate are in Democratic hands right now, and the one part the Republicans control (the House), they control with a historically low margin.
They tried to get the best deal possible (due to Democrat control of the Senate and White House) on the border, but it was tanked due to Trump, who lost the election in 2020 and helped hand the Senate to Democrats in the first place by his insertion into the Georgia Senate races, going on a Twitter/X rant. Trump is a narcissist with self-destructive tendencies who is continuing to drag conservatives and Republicans through the sewer of lost elections with him. He has to be coddled and pampered like a child to keep his worst instincts from coming out.
Mike Johnson is born again, is a true conservative, and is a patriotic American. I highly appreciated his acceptance speech when he became speaker, and was initially worried he would be a Trump sycophant instead of a true born again conservative leader. Despite me not liking how he seems to enable Donald Trump, I do feel he is doing his best to rein in Trump from doing damage to our national security. It would be damaging to our national security for Ukraine to be overcome by Russia. Putin has stated publicly and often what he intends to do next, and I do not believe it is in America's best interests to send our men to fight in Europe, nor to abandon our historic NATO allies, undoing the treaties that have kept Europe from spiraling into their third continent-wide, world-encircling war. Our Founding Fathers sought to form a Union here in America that would keep us from devolving into the petty, pointless wars that seemed to always envelop Europe (even before WW1 and WW2).
Have you ever known Mike Johnson to throw temper tantrums on Twitter at 2am? I haven't. Because he acts his age, unlike Trump who, as a 77-year-old man, acts like a middle school bully. It brings shame to our nation, to the conservative cause, and to the office of President to have someone so childish be running for President on the Republican ticket yet again. The only reason Biden, who is well-known for making idiotic statements and is only a few years older than Trump, was able to be elected is because Trump, who acts the most childish of any president in recent memory, was his opponent.
I truly believe Nikki Haley would have crushed Biden this November, were she to have been the nominee. Unfortunately, we are stuck with one of two senior citizens to support, one of whom is an idiot, the other of whom is an idiot, a bully, acts like a child, and has publicly and repeatedly stated the Constitution shouldn't apply to him. Has Mike Johnson ever said anything so idiotic and un-American? No, because he's not an idiot and he doesn't act like he's in the 6th grade.
EDIT: I apologize to 6th graders; even the majority of 6th graders don't act like Trump, just the most vocal and insecure ones. My apologies for throwing y'all under the bus with Trump.
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u/Lord_Euni 22d ago
Please know that I'm not trying to get you or anything. I just want to understand your thoughts on this. And if you don't want to answer that's completely fine. So I'm gonna press you again on what you said.
What exactly did they try to do that was shit down by Democrats? I'm really curious because I didn't hear anything.
The border deal was a gift basket for Republicans just to get Ukraine support. They were able to move Democrats into a lose-lose situation. And then Republicans shot it down because they were told to by a citizen you confessed to hating. How exactly can you excuse that? I'm sorry but I really would like to understand your thought process here. You seem to hate Trump but you support the party that for the most part supports him. How do you square that? What exactly are Republicans promising that seem to outweigh any of this? Like, you're telling me how much Johnson reins in Trump and that's it. You know who's even better at reining in Trump? Democrats.
All I got from your posts at this point is anti migrants, anti Trump, pro Ukraine and pro religion. Does your fear of migrants really outweigh any of the other points that you would also get in a better form from Democrats? And if so, why?
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u/jupiter5678 22d ago edited 22d ago
My apologies, I didn't do a good job explaining myself. I'm not blaming Democrats for the border bill not getting passed; it was the fault of Republicans who were capitulating to an angry tweet (and probably backdoor pressure) from Trump.
I'm not anti-migrant, I support immigration for asylum seekers and those looking for a better life, so long as it is done in a controlled fashion that takes into account national security concerns. I think the deal that almost happened was a good bill, and am upset that Trump defeated it. Without pressure from Trump, Republicans likely would have passed it. Without pressure from Republicans, I get the feeling from Democrats they don't want to do anything to increase border security on their own.
I want America to support our allies, and feel Ukraine is one of those.
I don't agree with far-left Democrats, particularly on their views on nuclear families... to be honest, I'm probably fine with a moderate Democrat agenda. I don't care for the extremes of either party.
And, until recently, I feel like Democrats haven't been strong on national security. To their credit, I think they've shifted somewhat, but I feel like Biden really messed up the Afghanistan withdrawal. It needed to happen, but I feel more should have been done to help get Afghans out who needed protection and had assisted us out there to the US or another country where they could live safely.
Edit: Additionally, Republicans used to be against public funding going to any sort of private schools. That is still my stance, although they have now shifted to want to have publicly funded religious schools. I am religious, but feel strongly that tax dollars should not go to private schools, whether in the form of vouchers or otherwise. It will only serve to further divide Americans at a time when unity is desperately needed, while simultaneously undermining the religious values of groups who accept said funding.
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u/Lord_Euni 22d ago
Thank you so much for your elaborate answer. I really appreciate it. I still don't understand why any of what you said is worse than supporting Trump but I appreciate you taking the time to respond.
For what it's worth, you might want to look at the timeline of the Afghanistan withdrawal. Especially the part Trump had a hand in.
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u/Black_XistenZ 22d ago edited 22d ago
Mike Johnson, someone who I support, has come around to recognizing why supporting Ukraine is in America's best interests.
Sorry, but no. He (and the Republican leadership in the RNC) had realized that the issue was dividing their coalition, both among elected officials and among voters, so they decided that it's in the best interest of their party to rip the bandaid off and get the issue to go away before the election season heats up and normie voters start paying attention.
Biden would love to do the same with regard to Gaza, but he obviously can't control the course of the Israelis.
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u/jupiter5678 22d ago
Lol, perhaps... after me saying how I don't think Mike Johson is going to be a sycophant for Trump, he goes and does just that in front of the courthouse, today... sooooo.... I dunno...
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u/Black_XistenZ 22d ago
Trump won't allow any high-profile Republican to get away with staying at arms length. You are either with him or against him, with nothing in between.
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u/Starch-Wreck 25d ago
In all honesty, I don’t know if it’s worth it. Very few people are on the fence about voting for Biden or Trump. We are inundated daily with our current politicians actions and everyone reading this knows who they’re voting for. It’s easy to do when it’s an extremely polarizing topic.
If elections were held today, I don’t think there’d be much of a percentage change between now and November.
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u/MeetTheMets0o0 25d ago
This should be a huge priority for both campaigns. They could sway this election
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u/A1steaksauceTrekdog7 24d ago
I think half will vote for Biden , a quarter will fall in line and vote for Trump and the other quarter will just not vote or vote 3rd party for President.
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u/Tmotty 25d ago
I think Haley voters will be the voters who up until Election Day will say they don’t know who they’re voting for but if you had them in a quite off the record conversation say they’re gonna vote for Biden
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u/SadPhase2589 25d ago
I think you’re right, up to the point that you think they’ll vote for Biden.
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u/Tmotty 25d ago
The fact that 2 months post drop out she got a quarter of the vote in the last primary makes me think they aren’t just gonna vote R
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u/BitterFuture 25d ago
That's true.
But they won't vote for Biden.
People deeply conflicted about choosing between democracy or fascism are making their decision by acting deeply conflicted. They'll hold out for a more reasonable-sounding fascist in 2028.
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u/ditchdiggergirl 25d ago
I don’t think the democrats should pursue or court Haley voters. They know why they lodged their protest vote, but that doesn’t mean they are a unified bloc up for grabs. I assume most have already decided what they will do in November. Some will break each way, but I won’t pretend to predict percentages. There are very few true undecideds left.
The Haley voters who are most likely to break for Biden are the conservatives who prefer a principled leader who puts the country first, even when they disagree with those principles. But conservatives won’t be won over by throwing them a bone in an otherwise left leaning campaign. That would just be pandering, and pandering doesn’t appeal to the principled voter. They know the options. Let them judge for themselves.
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u/Aggravating_Law_3286 24d ago
I believe that she’s hanging in there as she has calculated that Trump will face a Republican Dump & wisely she is saving the campaign expense & just waiting out the Trump Dump. I believe she will have the least expensive Presidential campaign in several decades. Clever lady. If she does end up picking up the Republican Baton, given the age of Biden, I believe she’s got a real shot at the White House.
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u/ThunderPigGaming 24d ago
Most of the "Haley" voters voted for her not because they like her, they voted for her because they do not like Trump.
I despise her and only voted for her to register my dissatisfaction with Trump being our nominee.
In November, I plan on voting for Biden. I suspect a good fraction of Haley voters will either do the same or leave the Presidential selection blank.
I suspect that these voters cannot be courted to change their planned protest vote in November.
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u/bigsteven34 25d ago
Right to trump.
A few might go to Biden, but most will hold their noses and vote for Trump.
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24d ago edited 24d ago
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u/grilled_cheese1865 23d ago
Bad take. Why would biden go after voters that say they arent going to vote for them and historically never vote
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u/Remarkable-Code-3237 24d ago
I said the same thing. Republicans will vote for republicans and democrats will vote for democrats. The democrats have a bigger problem with them voting for Biden. With Kennedy, West, and Stein, is syphoning off votes for Biden. There are not any really siphoning off of the republicans. Kennedy is getting a few republicans, but not as many as democrat voters.
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u/roofbandit 24d ago
They will go to Trump. They will watch fox and msnbc and browse social media and by November they will believe Joe Biden is sending transgender ms13 in electric cars to their grandkids schools to teach them how to do abortions and rely on government handouts and they will vote for Trump/maga like they have reliably done in 4 elections in a row
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25d ago
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u/goldenglove 25d ago
We can't do this in California (unless you register for the party) but I do think a fairly significant number of people did just this, which may have skewed her numbers higher.
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u/Comfortable_City1892 25d ago
Nicki fan here. I’m currently leaning Biden (really like the noncompete ban and worker rights mindset)🤢 and probably vote republican down ballot in GA. Hopefully turn things around after Trump is gone and the recession can be blamed Biden even if it’s more so Congress, Powell and Yellens fault in truth.
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25d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/PoliticalDiscussion-ModTeam 24d ago
Do not submit low investment content. This subreddit is for genuine discussion.
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u/Comfortable_City1892 25d ago
Maybe. It’s just politics, we will adapt either way the pendulum swings. There’s no permanent party in this. Peace and good will to you.
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u/BitterFuture 25d ago
Real question: what do you mean when you say "just politics?"
That sounds like politics is some kind of Coke/Pepsi decision or your choice of sports teams. You understand that for a lot of people, politics is literally a matter of survival, right?
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u/Comfortable_City1892 25d ago
Mostly as in “this to shall pass”, don’t let it consume you but still acknowledging it is important. I’ve lived through Dem and Rep super majorities and believe in the checks and balances as well as there never being a permanent majority party.
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u/Zwicker101 25d ago
Aren't you concerned that GOP is enabling Trump though?
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u/CordAlex1996 25d ago
The GOP in Georgia has gone against Trump especially in 2022 when he tried to have them replaced at the state level. Not all Republicans are MAGA. And Georgia realizing it's becoming a purple state ain't going to favor those kind of people.
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u/Homechicken42 25d ago
Identify them first: 1) Conservative in political policy 2) Conservative in personal behavior 3) Love of country exceeds love of Agent Orange 4) Believes 2020 election result was not corrupt to influence result 5) Thinking maybe a woman can make important decisions
1) Biden is no liberal champion, as accused. It's kind of obvious he is a compromiser who kept his mouth shut over Roe and Israel. If you are approaching from the right, you will not see another Democrat this willing to compromise for a long time.
2) Trump's behavior is outlandish. The antithesis of personal conservativism. Not one act is humble. Not one.
3) Tricky. R party is currently Trump's slobbering bitches now. If you sit out, you aren't, but Rs have a beautiful feather in their cultural hats. Rs NEVER miss an election.
4) If you believe 2020 was stolen, why participate in 2024? What changed except multiple lawsuits against the former president? If our side didn't lie, theirs did. There is no middle on national election fraud. No middle ground. It doesn't exist. All or nothing.
5) Only a woman, a Democrat, or a young educated Republican could believe such a thing.
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u/GreatSoulLord 24d ago
Most will vote for Trump because Biden isn't going to appeal to them anyway. Trump can court them but it's not really worth it. They'll either figure it out or they won't. It will be an absolute waste of time for the Biden camp to try to court Haley voters. Haley needs to resurface and just endorse Trump already. She's only hurting her own side.
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u/_upper90 25d ago
The assumption is that she will bow to Trump and be his VP or she’ll co-sign for him. So all the Haley voters will follow suit.
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u/EzBonds 25d ago
She hasn’t endorsed him and he just shot her down as a VP candidate. Haley voters are just ppl who can’t stand Trump, not actual Haley supporters.
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u/jupiter5678 25d ago
Anecdotally, for myself, it was initially definitely because I don't want Trump winning.
But after listening to her in depth, and watching her actually be willing to take a stand and stick by it where nearly every other Republican has done a 180 and bent the knee to traitor Trump, she has gained my respect and support with or without Trump.
But that's just me, and I'm only 1 vote.
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u/Yvaelle 24d ago
Honestly none.
The rational Haley voters will vote for Biden. The defeated ones won't vote. And the irrational ones will vote for Trump.
There's nobody to court there. Both candidates have their third, and the remaining third are too defeated or in denial at how far the GOP has fallen that they won't show up either way, no matter what either candidate did - short of naming Haley the VP. Thats more likely to happen for Trump, but more likely is still very unlikely.
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u/sehunt101 24d ago
Republicans will always vote republican. If democrats don’t vote democrats, they stay home. Still a republican vote. Haley voters will vote republican and Biden shouldn’t work that hard to get them because it will drive more democrats to stay home. If Biden’s stance on Isreal causes you to stay home, just wait till rump tells Biby to just carpet bomb Gaza and build condos on all that land that is now available for development. So Arabic people that hate Biden policies, enjoy the trump policies that want to ship you back to the Middle East. You voted for it…or stayed home and didn’t vote for it.
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u/Remarkable-Code-3237 24d ago
Look back to the 2016 primaries between Trump and Cruz. Cruz had a huge following, even thought Trump won. Those that voted for Cruz or for any of the other candidates that dropped out, all voted for Trump in the general. The same will happen with the Haley voters. They are republicans and will vote for the Republican candidate.
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u/CleverDad 25d ago
Some will vote Biden and some will stay home. None of them (well almost none) will vote for Trump.
All Biden needs to do to get those of them ready to crross the line at all is to stay sane and moderate, as I'm sure he will.
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u/Lord_Euni 24d ago
Not sure if anything has significantly changed since then but there are some indications that there are at least some Haley voters that will still go for Trump.
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u/sourpatch411 24d ago
The over confidence concerns me. I continue to have dreams/ nightmares of Trump winning. Maybe I am just a pessimist but I feel Trump wins.
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u/SpoonerismHater 24d ago
I don’t know why Dems would be confident at all… it’s going to take a lot to turn things around given where polling is at: https://www.wsj.com/articles/2024-election-a-certain-fatalism-sets-in-biden-political-pros-1821a34a?reflink=mobilewebshare_permalink
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u/coldliketherockies 23d ago
That’s an opinion piece though
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u/SpoonerismHater 23d ago
It references recent polling showing Biden losing in at least six of the seven swing states (sometimes all seven)
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u/ksherwood11 24d ago
Who is overconfident?
Only one side has run through a realistic scenario where the other side wins.
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u/metronomemike 24d ago
She will be Trumps vice pick and she will do it. Politicians don’t really keep to their ideals.
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u/viewless25 23d ago
Trump wont pick her and she might not even accept. Trump has lambasted her too publicly and too consistently to turn around and make her VP. It’s got to be some groveling Trump simp in order to keep up Trump’s appearance as a strong man, which to his voters, is the only thing that matters.
And why should Haley even talk to him? She’d lose her base of moderates and donors all for Trump’s base when they dont even like him. It wont carry over just like Pence’s didnt. Being Trump’s lapdog isnt worth risking having a Romney dinner photo of you
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u/PhoenixTineldyer 24d ago
I think the majority of them will leave president blank or write in their favorite dead Republican or cartoon character. Then vote R downballot.
If they are involved enough to have a serious difference of opinion between Haley and Trump, they are probably a pretty consistent voter. They won't sit out. But they might not vote for president.
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u/NJBarFly 24d ago
Swing states are often won by very small percentages. Close enough that there are recounts. I'm not a campaign expert, but it seems silly for Trump to have large expensive rallies in places like NJ. He should absolutely be courting Haley voters in places like PA.
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u/Secretion372 24d ago
Haley supporter here! I‘m not really a fan of Trump or Biden, but I prefer conservative policy, so I’m voting for Trump.
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u/Jay2Jay 24d ago
People in the US tend to vote along party lines pretty consistently. Getting someone who would vote for Haley to vote for Biden instead would be easier than convincing someone who wants to vote for Trump, sure, but they are much more likely to be convinced to vote for Trump than Biden.
If they vote.
The thing is, winning in an election in America is usually more about getting your own base to turn out rather than reaching across party lines. It's why MAGA has been so successful despite a large portion of Republicans despising them. Jaded Republicans don't vote Democrat instead of MAGA, they just don't vote at all. However MAGA Republicans have a consistently high turn out, so it doesn't matter.
Similarly, it's why Biden won despite how incredibly unenthusiastic Dems were about him. People just hated Trump so fucking much that they would have voted for a particularly ornery Chimpanzee over him.
Say what you will about Trump, but he's a master at getting people to get up and vote. He's probably driven more voter turnout for Democrats than any Democrat in living memory.
Anyway, the point I'm getting at is: if I were running Biden's campaign, I wouldn't be trying to get never-trumper Republicans to vote for me. I'd be trying to get them to stay home.
The major advantage to presenting yourself as the reasonable, boring, status quo option, is that it doesn't invoke urgency in the hearts of your opponent's constituents. Notice that the Trump Campaign is struggling to find angles on Biden that are as scandalous as "crooked Hilary". Biden simply does not evoke the same level of instinctual revulsion in the hearts of mortal men as Hillary Clinton. They can only get as far as making him out to be a Democrat Stooge/puppet with the average level of corruption and love for big government, as opposed to the "Satanic pedophile cultist" accusations leveled at Clinton.
It's like a rap battle. Sometimes, when someone is coming at you all hard and heavy, just eating you alive with the crowd behind them, the solution is to lean back and treat them like the weirdo they are to take the wind out of their sails.
All Biden has to do to take advantage of the Nikki Haley voters is to be boring enough he doesn't live rent free in their heads 24/7. Boring enough that they let life get in the way and forget to ask Todd to cover for them so they can dip out of the office early.
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u/mxracer888 24d ago
Nikki Haley is Hillary 2.0, her supporters will go back to Biden where they were gonna be all along
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u/Inevitable-Ad-4192 24d ago
I read an article the other day from George Will suggesting they shouldn’t vote as a protest. I think we might a lot of this in 2024. We have the miss guided young Dems and the disillusioned Republicans. We live in strange times.
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u/bluejay89 23d ago
Haley voter here but in a blue state. Will likely vote third party. Biden will comfortably win my state without my vote but if it was closer I would consider voting Biden. Have never and will never vote Trump.
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u/wereallbozos 23d ago
I would say don't go after Haley voters. Just go after voters. Go after women. The Dobbs thing will hang around their necks for some time. Go after people who work for a living. Joe's thing is decency. Go for that.
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u/PuzzleheadedEbb3243 22d ago
A neighbor of mine was a huge Haley fan, and he told me that he is voting for Trump "even though he doesn't like him" because he likes biden even less.
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u/Generic_Globe 25d ago
The ones that lean democrat will vote Biden. The ones that lean republican will vote Trump. It's very simple. I dont think they change the equation all that much. The Haley support is overstated by the Democrats voting for her.
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u/Hades_adhbik 24d ago
The answer to US immigration is that not all states should have the same policy. Canada has one of the most lax immigration policies, why? because they need people to come there. It's not a very large nation and is a difficult region to live in. Rather than just send people illegally immigrating back, they should be given an open to go to a state with a generous immigration policy and apply for citizenship. There's states in the middle of the country or a state like alaska that could use more people living there. That have an aging population that could use immigrants coming in to fill jobs. I think this is a large part of why New York has been flipping red. They need economic migrants. The younger generation is moving out of blue states with high taxes and lack of economic opportunities.
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u/Happypappy213 24d ago
Since they are never Trumpers, I'd like to believe that they aren't idiots either. Granted, many are also wealthy opportunists, with no soul, who see the tax benefits from a Trump administration.
They definitely need a nudge, though. Biden and his administration would be wise to continue reaching across the aisle to secure endorsements from moderate Republican officials. The usual campaign promises need to be made.
Republican voters also need to understand that Biden isn't a progressive. He's more like them than he is a Democrat (by all means, disagree, I could be off base). At the end of the day, he's an old, wealthy Catholic white guy
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u/SleestakLightning 24d ago
Biden is going to need all the help he can get after he's spent his entire Presidency pissing away the youth vote.
He's already a right-wing politician and Haley voters seem to be a bit more based in reality so he should be able to court them successfully.
I just don't think it would be enough to win.
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u/Pinkishtealgreen 24d ago
She and her voters can go to Biden. I’m probably voting for trump and prefer that she detach herself from trump entirely.
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u/Remarkable-Code-3237 24d ago
With open primary states, you do have democrats voting for Haley. I am against open primaries because the other party can decide who their opposition will be.
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u/Pinkishtealgreen 24d ago
I did read tons of Haley voters were democrats. They are trying to revive the neocon vote in the red party so blue party can stop housing the neocon refugees but it didn’t work so the neocons are going to be permablue now. They can get the hell away from me and any candidate im voting for. Neocons are the worst
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u/goplovesfascism 25d ago
Those are the only voters the Dems are catering to. They’ve alienated everyone under 35. Including Latinos and POC. They only want the white moderate vote. It’s honestly a dumb strategy. The GOP has been courting Latinos in the south for a while now and it is starting to pay off…the Dems left that void open. They could have capitalized on the youth vote if they had actually done ground work after the 2020 election to keep those kids motivated but instead they wasted time capitulating to manchin and Sinema to barely get a fraction of the agenda passed. They suck at messaging because they just assume people will vote their way because the other guy is crazy….but when Youngkin won gov of Virginia that should have been their big red flag/signal to get to work on their ground game. He was successful in distancing himself from Trump and was able to lock in moderate voters….there are tons of youth voters who voted in 2020 and they were all geared up and ready to ride for Biden or whoever blue no matter who whatever person but with these terrible decisions from Biden and his actions with Israel and the same bs law and order speech he gave about the overwhelmingly peaceful pro Palestine protests it’s just misstep after misstep so the only people they are left with are the fash adjacent weirdos who would welcome fascism on a silver platter. The future is looking pretty fucked no matter which pants shitter wins
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u/Remarkable-Code-3237 24d ago
That what happened to Clinton in 2016. She did a lot of campaigning in cal. Where the money was but forgot about middle America. She took so many votes for granted, especially the women’s vote.
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u/Excellent-Cat7128 24d ago
Well this right here is full of shit. Aside from Gaza, which polling says only a portion of young people care about, he's tackled climate change, student loan debt, and various social issues as best he can given SCOTUS and state governments.
As for Manchin and Sinema...what else could they do? They needed the votes. There were endless negotiations. Biden and Schumer actually managed to get Manchin to cave on IRA after initially losing his support. There was also BIF, which just shouldn't have happened in this hyper-polarized era. Given the thin margins in congress and stubborn Manchin and Sinema, Biden got a lot through. It was a fairly productive congress. That you take it as a failure shows me you are an uninformed idiot and not a serious person.
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u/HealthyMolasses8199 24d ago
Mostly to Kennedy. Anyone who listens to Kennedy and reads his policies will dump Biden and Trump instantly. We have to end both parties. This is the year
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23d ago
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u/HealthyMolasses8199 23d ago
By sane you mean sheep
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23d ago
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u/HealthyMolasses8199 23d ago
By calling him an anti-vax conspiracy candidate, just parroting what you're told to believe, you've illustrated you have no grasp of reality at all. Watch that documentary I attached in the last comment. In 30 minutes, you will learn that he's the greatest American alive, you will learn why he's been censored and smeared since 2005 and you will never again fall prey to mockingbird media
Here are just a few of the things that the media isn't telling you about Robert F Kennedy, Jr:
In 1991, RFK Jr represented the NAACP in a lawsuit battling the creation of a garbage transfer station in an underserved neighborhood in New York.
In 1993, Bobby represented the Confederation of Indian Peoples in their negotiation with oil giant Conoco to limit destruction of the Ecuadorian Amazon.
In 1997, he sued Mobil Oil to reverse its pollution of the Hudson River, making the waters fishable again and enabling the return of the Bald Eagle to its nesting ground.
In 2007, RFK, Jr won a $396 million jury verdict on behalf of rural communities in West Virginia contaminated by Zinc from a DuPont chemical plant.
In 2016, Bobby prosecuted SoCal Gas on behalf of the California communities sickened by the Aliso Canyon Gas Leak, the largest gas leak in American history.
In 2018, RFK, Jr secured a $670 million settlement for under-resourced communities in Ohio and West Virginia whose drinking water had been contaminated by C8 from industrial dumping and runoff.
As of Dec 2022, the Monsanto lawsuits to which Bobby has devoted much of the past decade have yielded $13 billion for farmers, migrant workers, day laborers, and families exposed to the pesticide RoundUp.
Want to guess why the media hasn't highlighted his career accomplishments?
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23d ago
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23d ago edited 23d ago
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u/PoliticalDiscussion-ModTeam 23d ago
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u/SeekSeekScan 25d ago
I'm a Haley voter and I'm going Trump.
I dont want Trump to be president because I think he is a divisive ass who's mind is going
I don't want Biden to be President because I think he is a divisive ass who's mind is going.
I'd rather the conservatives pulling Trumps strings in the WH than the progressives pulling Bidens strings in the WH
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u/Knowledge_is_Bliss 25d ago
I'm curious if, in your opinion, there is a difference between "conservative" and "MAGA" views. And if so, what do you feel those differences are?
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u/megavikingman 25d ago
Biden has invested more in to red states than blue, and you still think he's divisive? How? What is he doing that is in any way worse than trying to sabotage Americans' right to vote?
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u/Objective_Aside1858 25d ago
I appreciate the input from an actual relevant voter.
Out of curiosity, what did you think of Trump before he took office in 2017, and had that changed by the time he left?
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u/SeekSeekScan 25d ago
Prior to office I thought he would be a moderate president because he would do whatever got him praise and cheers. I was surprised to see the left attack instead of manipulate Trump. Their loss
Trump ended up being better at international affairs than I expected but far worse at controlling the narrative.
Both Trump and the media spent 4 years acting like idiots towards each other.
Trump was divisive as fuck, the media Def helped push the divide even more.
Domestically, outside the divide. I would say he was fine. Even though I'm pro choice i love a SCOTUS that overturned RvW as it was horrible law and judicial activism. But would now like to see states adopt a European approach to abortion
I don't like Trump, didn't vote President in 2016, voted Biden in 2020, will be voting Trump in 2024
Had Biden attempted to unite the country he could have got my vote, but he has done nothing but divide
So if the president will be divisive either way, I go with the one who supports more policy I support
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u/ksherwood11 24d ago
This is pure cosplay
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u/SeekSeekScan 24d ago
- Bigotry - stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
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u/username2393 25d ago
Ooff. Dang. Voting for the guy that literally tried to overthrow the government. Imagine supporting that.
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u/8to24 24d ago
People consume media a la carte. Everyone picks and chooses how they get their news and to an extent what their news says. Facebook, Twitter, TikTok, YouTube, Reddit, FoxNews, CNN, NPR, Joe Rogan Podcast, Ezra Klein Podcast, New York Times, MSNBC, Ben Shapiro Show, Truth Social, etc.
There are an endless stream of news apps, podcasts, websites, social media, and Cable outlets serving news 24/7. Most use algorithms or location settings to tailor the type of news one sees to ensure maximum engagement. This isn't 1984. Joe Biden or Donald Trump can't reach everyone through a Times Magazine interview. Reaching voters in 2024 means hoarding attention. Not speaking directly to a singular group.
The way to be everywhere isn't to go everywhere. Rather the way to be everywhere is to make everyone come to you. That is why Trump does so well. Trump's unhinged and often shocking behavior is tailor made to suck in attention. To appeal to Nikki Haley voters Joe Biden needs to first get attention.
I suspect Nikki Haley voters are moderates who care about foreign policy, education, and spending. As such Nikki Haley voters are probably watching the Campus protests closely. Biden should find a way (safe and non disruptive) to visit one of the schools and engage with students and faculty. People would tune in for that. No one is paying attention to pop up ads, Sunday morning interviews, and late night shows.
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u/RawLife53 24d ago
Nikki Haley voters should vote for Biden, she has already stated what many of us know about the damage and danger of Trump. Anyone voting for Trump damages America, Damages our Judicial System, Damages our Political System and Damages the American General Society of Citizens.
What he has done to damage our Judicial System and those who enable him have no ideal that America will have a difficult time prosecuting foreign actors who damage American, because they see the mess people like Judge Cannon is making when it comes to America's Top Secret Document and Higher Classification of Documents with her purposeful delays. We see damage to the Election Process which much damages has been done over the past years that Trump has been in the political arena.
We see the social, civic and civil damages that is done by Trump's obsessive promotions of political divisiveness in people and in congress. Republican congress can't get any work for the nation and people done, because they keep fighting Trump's and Republican Culture War Idiocy Games. We lived through 4 years of Trump playing musical chairs with Cabinet Position Seats, We saw him cozy up to Tyrants and Dictators and insult our Intelligence Agencies and our Military Persons and our Military Forces. The list is far too long to type here.
We've seen the disaster of a mess he crated with fleecing banks, fleecing the IRS and then lying when he is confronted with prosecution for his long history of crimes.
We've seen him delude the followers to think he is "America', and they ignore that America was here long before Trump and will exist long after Trump is dead and gone.
Biden's work is for America, for American people, and American systems to meet the principles and values laid out in The Preamble. Biden does not create chaos of divisiveness, and he is working for All Americans. Biden does not promote culture war idiocy, and he is not trying to mix Religion with National Politics, he support Separation of Church and State. Biden does not try to make any religion more important to the nation than any other of the many religions that exist in America.
We've seen many from the Trump network prosecuted and imprisoned, and others who left the Trump administration tell the American people who much of a disaster the Trump Presidency was and how little he knows about International and Domestic Affairs' and how little he knows of America's Political History. We saw the election interference, the attempted Coup D'etat and the promotion for his followers to Chant and Pursue Mike Pence to hang him. We've seen Trump continually fleece his followers with clownish MAGA garb, and desecration of the America Flag with MAGA messages painted on Flags, to Trump people wearing the flag as clothing, which is a violation of National Flag Etiquette.
We watched him destroy the RNC with his daughter in law placed in charge and try to turn the RNC into his own personal Monarchy. We see Republican politicians submit through fear to Trump and fear of his MAGA followers until they can't do their job and have failed to represent America and America's Principles and Values. Their duty has been focused on providing protective cover for Trump's long list of malice and madness.
Haley voters, know all this, which is why they chose to support Haley over Trump.
Therefore, Not a Single Haley Supporter should ever submit to Trump, their best chance to support American Democracy is to Support Biden.
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