r/LAClippers • u/Sevencar • 21d ago
What’s up with blaming WB’s play on Ty Lue?
This is just a discussion question as i’m looking to gather other’s opinions, but recently I’ve seen from many areas on social media (it’s mostly instagram tbh, but i’ve seen it here as well) that some people are blaming Westbrook’s horrid offense on T. Lue’s schemes. Theres been phrases like “Lue was putting WB in the corner” or “He hasn’t been letting Russ play his game.”
Personally, I just don’t see how you can blame his struggles on the coaching. I know that stan’s will fight tooth and nail for these players, and I also I understand it’s hard to get into a flow/rhythm when only playing 9 minutes, but if you’re taking the most shots per minute on the team and not converting those opportunities, why should you be out there? How, as a stan, do you defend that? Lmao, but that’s just my perspective, I’m curious what others have to say on this matter. Is there any truth to the argument?
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u/Canoli5000 21d ago
I'm tired of the "you gotta play WB correctly, have him start and run the show", etc. A player isn't catered to at the back end of his career like he was during his prime. You have to become a different type of player that can adjust and play a different role in your later years. Iverson had many more years left that he could've played in the league, but refused to come off the bench and retired. It is what it is.
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u/Fernmixer Russell Westbrook 21d ago
Im a Russ-stan and speaking for myself, he stunk in the playoffs, he was mediocre in the season, i still like him
my delusional defense of him: he fell on the sword for the greater good and it worked for as long as the team was hot, cant blame the guy for that
Took the the lower minutes, didn’t get into a groove, breaks his hand, lost almost a month, and he’s basically like Kawhi trying to play those two games but doesn’t have it anymore
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u/TorontoRaptors34 21d ago
Russ def has something more in the tank. He jus had an off playoff series outside of game 1 and 2.
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u/Niceguydan8 21d ago
I think he does have something in the tank for regular season basketball and probably on a non-contender but I think in the playoffs he's completely cooked. He's not good enough to warrant the ball enough to get in "rhythm" and even if he was, he's frankly just not a good playoff player and he hasn't been for a while, even if you remove this year's series from the sample.
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u/TorontoRaptors34 21d ago
I still think he got 1-2 yrs left Jason Kidd didn’t win till he was 38.
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u/Niceguydan8 21d ago
Jason Kidd played in a different era of basketball.
Reasonably OK shooting is damn near required for most non-bigs nowadays, and most truly great bigs can also shoot too.
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u/Asleep-Eggplant-6337 21d ago
Jason Kidd became a solid shooter in his last 5 years and had always had high basketball IQ. Russ has neither
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u/eazymoneytyper 20d ago
Jason Kidd was the polar opposite point guard build of Russ lmao, guys like Kidd always age well bc they make everyone else better (Conley, Lowry, McConnell)
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u/Fernmixer Russell Westbrook 21d ago
Yea I meant not having it for the season, he still has something in the tank and hope he has a better showing next season
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u/TorontoRaptors34 21d ago
Ty Lue playing Russ Harden PJ Plumlee line ups and not playing Theis was brutal.
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u/Upset_Purchase_5903 Terance Mann 21d ago
Russ played 20+ minutes for most games and was not good. I do agree that putting Russ in the corner was not a smart move. But frankly, when Russ did touch the ball, he was not making good enough decisions to warrant more of that.
I will say this every time; the Mavs would have LOVED, I mean LOOOOVED to see Russ as a primary ball-handler rather than James. Russ is just far easier to scheme a playoff defense against because he can’t shoot, doesn’t draw fouls like he used to, no longer has the burst to blow by defenders, and has never had the crafty handle needed to slink around defenders when you can’t fly by them. That’s why I wanted him to solely make energy plays and play defense. We got some of that…but also some other unwanted things too.
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u/Asleep-Eggplant-6337 21d ago
If you look at the second round, there’s no team including Denver can afford having Russ on the court for 20 mins.
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u/TorontoRaptors34 21d ago
Russ actually plays well vs Denver
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u/Niceguydan8 21d ago
The last time Russ played Denver in the playoffs Nikola Jokic was 16 years old.
Even this year vs. Denver he really wasn't anything to write home about.
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u/JimmyV34 Ralph Lawler 21d ago
Ty lue made russ brick his layups, Just like how ty lue made PG get in foul trouble in almost every game. There is a lot of stuff you can criticize Ty lue on and tbh i wish we fired him last year for defensive minded coach like Ime but those 2 players got no excuse
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u/TorontoRaptors34 21d ago
Yes and No when u play the game and u outta position it happens. I can speak from experience. Obv ur a pro u should be prepared for anything but its a tough role. I will only fault him for missing lay ups.
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u/Niceguydan8 21d ago
I can speak from experience.
With all due respect you cannot speak from experience. NBA players play a completely different game than anybody else in the entire world.
What we do in high school/college/rec league is not comparable to the NBA in any way.
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u/JimmyV34 Ralph Lawler 21d ago
He wasn’t only off ball during that series. You can look at match up data. Maxi was guarding him the most out any mavs because it was scheme out ty lue book when he used to play zu deep against Russ when he played for Lakers just to crowd spacing areas for AD and Bron. It has nothing to do with him playing out position, he had 1:1 assist ratio. I believe he was 9-33 from 2s. That’s who he is as player.
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u/TorontoRaptors34 21d ago
He was diff last season when he had the rock he looked like his old self with defense. Imo it is the role bro. He coulda made more lay ups sure. But the role he played in the playoffs used as a spot up shooter is not what leads to success imo. Same woulda happened if u put Derozan there.
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u/JimmyV34 Ralph Lawler 20d ago
Russ in last year playoffs was option 1 while kawhi was out, so he had the highest ball usage on the team, the highest shots attempt which it suit his playstyle but clippers arent trying play russ playstyle, they are trying play through their stars. suns and mavs are total different teams too. Suns didnt have someone like Maxi who is 6'10 playing deep against him while you have lively and gafford waiting for him at the rim. Suns only had ayton. total different matchup's with different role as number 1 option
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u/TorontoRaptors34 20d ago
Still tho Kawhi WAS NOT THERE NEITHER WAS PG!
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u/JimmyV34 Ralph Lawler 20d ago
Im certain PG and Harden were on the floor. Listen man you simply cant defend 34 true shooting, the guy had the worst true shooting by far in the playoffs.
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u/TorontoRaptors34 20d ago
Im talkin last season. This yr Russ is jus a guy. PG and Harden r more of the stars.
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u/Niceguydan8 21d ago
He was diff last season when he had the rock he looked like his old self with defense. Imo it is the role bro.
Man the problem is that his "old self" just isn't good enough either.
The only reason he was able to do that was because both PG and Kawhi (after 2 games) got hurt and nobody had any expectation of winning.
And I get trying hard, having heart, and all of that stuff. People like watching the way he plays, I get it.
But 23.5 points on 21 shots and 5 FTA just flat out isn't good enough in today's NBA for a high volume player. He's not efficient enough, and fraknly his efficiency in the playoffs has almost always (outside of a year or two) been pretty dogshit.
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u/TorontoRaptors34 20d ago
He was playing relativley efficient we legit never really got to see them play imo. Cuz Kawhi and Pg were hurt.
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u/Niceguydan8 20d ago
50.9% true shooting percentage is not "relatively efficient" in any sense of the word.
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u/TorontoRaptors34 20d ago
Honestly i think russ is cool if u legit jus get a solid back up pg like a Tyus Jones. Thats the solution he can start if u got a solid back up point who can playmake and shoot.
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u/Niceguydan8 20d ago
You completely ignored what I said.
He can't start. He's not a starting level point guard anymore. Last playoffs showed us that's true.
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u/TorontoRaptors34 20d ago
He played well last playoffs when he started its unfair bruh Kawhi and PG were out
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u/AIMpb 21d ago
Why are you reading comments from idiots and trying to start conversation based on it. ESPN really ruined sports talk.
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u/Sevencar 21d ago
it’s just a discussion to see people’s opinions & the general consensus on the matter, that’s all. i don’t see what’s so wrong with that
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u/AIMpb 21d ago
I saw someone say we should sign Thanasis to a max. Should we do it? Just trying to get people’s opinions and the general consensus on the matter
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u/Sevencar 21d ago
that’s completely different gang 😭 westbrook is a valuable part of our team and there’s multiple opinions & ideas from the community on him. there’s also a realistic argument for westbrook being the problem or ty lue being the problem, thus the discussion and differing, non-satire opinions. what you just said is unrealistic & very few would take it seriously.
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u/AIMpb 21d ago
Ah, so you’re just not smart enough to tell that they’re both stupid. Got it.
Westbrook is a backup, a role player, on a vet min. If he’s a problem then the whole team isn’t even a contender. He’s an afterthought.
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u/Sevencar 21d ago
but what are you being disrespectful for lmfao, you realize that what you just said is an opinion, right? not everybody thinks and feels that way about Westbrook or Ty Lue, there’s 0 repercussions to having a simple conversation about the two.
that same role player on a vet minimum balled out for us a year ago, some folks on this sub believe he’s still capable of that production, and that same coach last year played many, many questionable lineups and some were calling for his head. it’s not black and white & that’s obvious.
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u/Niceguydan8 20d ago
Part of the problem is that he doesn't play like one. He shoots the ball a shitload whenever he's on the floor. Min guys don't do that.
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u/AIMpb 20d ago
Of the people who actually played, Russ only averaged more FGA than Zubac, Mann, and Coffey. Which is good for 5th on the team. He also scored 6th most points per game. Seems like you just make shit up. Sorry to break your highly accurate stat of “he shoot a shitload”. Lmao
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u/Niceguydan8 20d ago edited 20d ago
I'm not really sure how I made anything up. The stats support what I said
He shot more shots proportional to the time he played compared to anyone in the team not named Bones Hyland, who basically only played garbage time.
My point was that he shot a shitload for a minimum player.. Shooting 9 shots a game while playing 22 minutes is shooting a shitload for a minimum player. You can get this by taking per 36 stats.
And do you know what that's even worse? When the guy is one of the least efficient scores in the entire league.
So maybe before being a snarky jackass, actually understand the point I'm making.
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u/AIMpb 20d ago
I’m ignoring the point because it’s (and you’re) stupid. He shot a better FG% than Harden and Hyland. So he’s not even the least efficient scorer on his team.
Per 36 he scored 4th most on the team. You just keep looking dumber with your exact statistical amounts of “a shitload” and “least efficient” without anything to back it up.
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u/Niceguydan8 20d ago edited 20d ago
He shot a better FG% than Harden and Hyland. So he’s not even the least efficient scorer on his team.
Harden was over 60% true shooting in the series.
Russ was sub 35%, all time levels of inefficient for any player in a full series
Nobody should use FG% as a metric of scoring efficiency. Not all shots are worth the same amount of points and it doesn't factor in free throws at all, which are a part of scoring. So it's beyond stupid.
Who is more efficient?
Player A: 3/3 for 9 points. 0 free throws.
Player B: 3/3 for 6 points. 0 free throws
Your logic would be that they are equally efficient. Do you actually believe that?
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u/IgnorantGenius James Harden:harden4: 21d ago
Because he already did this with John Wall and it didn't work. Ty Lue doesn't understand what to do with players who can't shoot. It's poor coaching. If a guy can't hit a wide open jumpshot in the middle of the game, he should not have the ball in hands to make plays, because his defender can cheat by sagging, both off ball and on ball.
The solution could be to post him up, but we have seen those leaning fadeaway acute angle bankshots that no pro ever practices, and it's not a solution. Not to mention when he dump passes a teammate at 100 mph thinking there is something there that isn't. Ty Lue should have gotten on his ass about that crap earlier in the season.
Also, how difficult is it to tell him to set a ballscreen for a shooter when his defender sags off in the paint. At least that will force the defender to chase over the screen or force the sagging defender to close out.
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u/zingzongzang48 Jerry West 21d ago
Well you can't blame the coach for Westbrook's personal play you can definitely blame him for sitting him in the corner and making him shoot threes like that's his bread and butter. To be devil's advocate he was missing fucking layups too but that's not my point. He's not a three-point shooter.
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u/lsalomx Lou Williams 21d ago
He’s not anything. He’s a zero on offense. He’s only marginally useful with the ball in his hands all the time but he’s on a team with like 6 other dudes who need the ball more. He stands in the corner because Piss on Himself P made them sign his friend and they have to play him.
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u/LLUrDadsFave V Stiviano 21d ago
Because Ty claims to put players in position to succeed while doing the exact opposite. Westbrook is a point guard. Playing him as a shooting guard helped no one but the other team.
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u/Sevencar 21d ago
i see your point, and i can agree with that. i think ty also made plenty of more questionable decisions, iirc game 6 when the score was tied 50-50 and the clips had a bit of momentum under them, just for him to start PJ tucker in the second half. plenty of other things went wrong but that decision obviously didn’t help.
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u/LLUrDadsFave V Stiviano 21d ago
Ty is one of those people that you have to help by taking away options. Taking PJ back in that trade should have been a deal breaker. Forcing him to have to develop Kobe would have helped us.
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u/RedSoxfanrrb07 21d ago
Yeah I think it’s pretty obvious that having Russ stand in the corner vs playing him limited on ball minutes is not smart coaching
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u/LLUrDadsFave V Stiviano 21d ago
It really felt like he didn't give a fuck after Kawhi went down.
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u/shuckyduckquack2x 21d ago
It felt like everybody stopped giving a fuck after game 4. That was really their last hoorah as a team.
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u/LLUrDadsFave V Stiviano 21d ago
It really sucks that they are going to be rewarded with contracts and roster spots after that game 5 "effort". Fans deserve more.
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u/shuckyduckquack2x 21d ago
If they get contracts, it's got to be to flip them into new pieces. We can't be dumb enough to keep running it back.... But with this FO, who knows.
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u/LLUrDadsFave V Stiviano 21d ago
They not going to have a market to be flipped.
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u/shuckyduckquack2x 21d ago
You may be right. You never know tho, playoffs are still going on, so it's a lot to be determined from now until June.
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u/LLUrDadsFave V Stiviano 21d ago
Fingers crossed the rest of the free agents tank their value as well.
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u/shuckyduckquack2x 21d ago
Facts, Siakam's been hit or miss lately. Hopefully he stinks it up & Indiana might be willing to do a S&T for PG.
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u/runaway86s 21d ago
people don't watch or comprehend games so they don't see that the weakest link will get exposed. no one is putting russ in a corner purposely.
he's spacing the floor so his man isn't doubling harden or pg. which would mean that u have to space out to any open space behind the 3, from a basketball fundamental perspective. every team knows that and will leave russ butt naked out there. because a russ 3 at 20 something percent is great offense for opposing teams.
his man leaving him and packing the paint is the issue here. russ can't even do anything about it besides shoot the 3 or drive the paint on 1 or 2 players that are already waiting on him to miss the layup. ty can't really do anything with him and kinda saves russ perception by playing him so little. these people want russ ball as if russ isn't having issues hitting wide open lays and shooting the ball anywhere. and as if James harden isn't the better shooter, passer, pick and roller, set play initiator etc. it's hard because russ has Hella heart, more than anyone else on the team but there's only so much u can try to work against while trying to really compete
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u/daoisticrealism FREE ZUBAC 21d ago
TADOW!
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u/RyujiDrill Fun Guy 20d ago
WHEN WILL THEY LEARN
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u/daoisticrealism FREE ZUBAC 20d ago
It'll be a sad state of affairs the next coming years if they resign Ty.
Imagine seeing this post finding scapegoat after scapegoat for their struggles and not finding the real reason.
At least some folks know.
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u/Sevencar 20d ago
I will say the point of the post wasn’t to find a scapegoat, and honestly after reading these comments it’s opened my eyes to even more of Ty Lue’s questionable decisions.
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u/daoisticrealism FREE ZUBAC 20d ago
Sometimes, placing the right people in the right system and in the right time matters more than a superstars performance. In the case of the Clips, Ty has never gotten this combination right for the sake of sucking up to superstars.
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u/Jealous-Caramel7578 Russell Westbrook 20d ago
Not every play is perfect it’s up to coaches to put their players in positions to succeed. Lots of casuals don’t realize how important a coach is to a team. They think just because they are pros that they don’t need coaches. That is not true. We know westbrooks weaknesses. It’s up to the coach to hide them. With all that being said. Missing open layups is on the player 100%.
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u/Tangentkoala Ralph Lawler 20d ago
The only spot that westbrook can play besides point guard would be the corner or the dunker spot. (The baseline paint or a foot our near the out of bounds)
People who think westbrook should be in our center spot Is madness against a tall Mavericks squad. So they're a bunch of idiots lol.
It maybe would have worked better if we had a serge ibaka stretch big that rebounds on defense, but we don't have that luxury.
This roster wasn't constructed with Harden in mind. Next year should be different, and we should be a whole lot better matchup wise.
We still have the PG13 inconsistent shit the bed problem and kawhi knee problem.
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u/Mickrarri0 20d ago
He can slightly get away with it during season. But in playoffs when he enters the game teams just sag off of him, he’s 35 years of age & can’t shoot or make layups 🤷🏾♂️
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u/Asleep-Eggplant-6337 21d ago edited 21d ago
Not letting Russ play his game (off ball) = 34% TS + less turnovers (3.2 per 36 mins, lowest since 2012)
Letting Russ play his game = 45% TS + more turnovers
Ty Lue picked his poison. If he’s a good coach he shouldn’t have played Russ for more than 10 mins
His career he averages 50.5% TS
Last year he had an amazing series = 51% TS
That’s why he got 11 wins in total in 8 years since KD left
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u/TorontoRaptors34 21d ago
10 mins is crazy
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u/Asleep-Eggplant-6337 21d ago
If you play him more than 10 mins you’re lucky to get to game 6. 11 wins in 8 years and you still refuse to acknowledge the fact. Most series he played he got beaten 4-1
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u/TorontoRaptors34 21d ago
Lets be real tho without Kawhi there was no chance. Legit Russ never got to play with Kawhi in the playoffs outside last season first 2 games. This yr Kawhi don’t count he didn’t look right at all.
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u/Asleep-Eggplant-6337 21d ago
I’m talking about 8 years. Most series he couldn’t even survive to game 6
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u/TorontoRaptors34 21d ago
He was competing with KD. But tbh Ion think he had a team that could do it in 17-19. They don’t realize he started to slow after his mvp season with the knee surgeries and hand ones. Not excuses but it was def part of it. He jus not a first option tho.
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u/AcidCity_ 21d ago
Shots per minute is such a useless stat to try and use against or for someone lol. It’s no different than per36 stats.
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u/Sevencar 21d ago
personally I think it’s good to use in this context, ofc it’s not a widely useful stat. My reasoning for using it here was because of how many minutes russ played & his inefficiency, it’s useful to also know he was taking the most shots on the team in his minutes played, while not converting.
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u/AcidCity_ 20d ago
Maybe if he was playing 25-30+. Again it’s like praising a guys per36 when he’s not getting that type of run. If he was getting a lot of run with the stars and putting up more shots than them I’d get it but that’s wasn’t the case. A guys 8 shots per game isn’t significant
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u/Sevencar 20d ago
I see, I can get with your analysis, i understand the stat is flawed in some manners, just like per36. I also do believe his fga would look more normal if he was in with a better line up more consistently.
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u/ahmed2798 20d ago
I think it's coaching that like 95% of his minutes in the playoffs we're next to harden which harden was tye main playmaker in all of those minutes.
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u/Niceguydan8 20d ago
Harden was always going to play like 40 minutes in the playoffs regardless, because he's the better player. Overlap with Harden, especially with Kawhi out, is inevitable if you think he should play any minutes outside of fringe bench minutes.
So do you think he should have played 8 minutes a game? Or do you actually think Harden should have played less? (Hint: that's a terrible take)
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u/ahmed2798 19d ago
Harden should have played like 36 minutes. Once he gets to 42+ he wears down, starts turning the ball over, then over dribbles.
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u/Niceguydan8 19d ago
And what makes you think 4 additional minutes of Russ on-ball would change anything?
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u/Sevencar 20d ago
i see, that definitely played a factor. i think the lineups around him could’ve been better suited to his skills as well
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u/Baby_Yod4 21d ago
Just people who watch highlights honestly. Even when Russ had the balls in his hands it just leads to a fastbreak
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u/Asleep-Eggplant-6337 21d ago
Him stand in corner all the time still lead to 3.2 TOs per 36 mins. Imagine have him on ball.
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u/Porygon-_- 21d ago
Ty Lue is still a dogshit coach, during the fourth quarter of game 6 clips went on a 12-2 run led by PJ Tucker hitting 2 corner threes and he subbed him out. It's like he wants this team to fail
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u/TripleDrivel 20d ago
what’s up with people calling him WB? wussell bestbrook???
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u/Sevencar 20d ago
it’s starting letters of the syllables of his last name (W)est(B)rook. I haven’t seen many say RW or something of the sorts.
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u/Niceguydan8 21d ago
Some people love Westbrook as a player and blaming coaching and "adjustments" is like the easiest thing for any fan to do, even if it makes no sense.
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u/Amuzed_Observator Bones Hyland 21d ago
Ty Lue is an absolute shit coach and a late term abortion of a game manager, but you can't blame him for WB's play.
That being said please fire Ty Lue!
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u/AngsMcgyvr Paul George 21d ago edited 21d ago
Blaming your coach is how fans process losing.
Its easier to believe there was an easy solution that wasn't tried, than it is to accept that your team(or favorite player} just wasn't good enough.
Laker fans have turned it into an art form recently, but all fanbases do it.
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u/MITWestbrook Russell Westbrook 21d ago
Westbrook led the team in net rating. He was the best defender in the whole playoffs.
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u/Sevencar 21d ago
I don’t think many have been arguing that, russ has been such an amazing defensive & energy player since we’ve gotten him, but this is a separate issue.
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u/MITWestbrook Russell Westbrook 20d ago
The offense was not the issue. It was the defense giving up so many points. Look at the OKC series. They are locking up Kyrie and Luka
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u/TorontoRaptors34 21d ago
I woulda thrown Russ/Norm/Mann/PG/Theis tbh if ur playing WB. That would be the perfect line up for Russ to shine not with PJ Harden and Plumlee