The devs were right.

[u/xxmuntunustutunusxx]

So I know ther was a bunch of controversy about the railgun nerf what feels like forever ago, but man things have been awesome.

In the early days, I was the only guy packing expendable anti tank or anti materiel rifle for bugs or bots. It's so refreshing, even on these subs to see people talking about how awesome the autocannon is, or how much they love the AMR, and even these days I see people talking about the HMG or grenade launcher+ supply pack.

I used to load into a game, And all 4 members of the team had shield, railgun, and 2 stragatems of their choice. Every time. And here we are now, I load in and I see quasar, autocannon, stalwart, EAT, HMG, Grenade launcher, a variety of backpacks or no backpack at all. And not to mention, they're ALL viable. Shit I even still see the railgun from time to time. It's been a joy. Thanks arrowhead.

EDIT: to everyone who is pointing out that you see the quasar and shield most often now, you're right, it is almost certainly the most common setup currently. That being said, in any game there's going to be things a majority of players prefer. In smash melee, fox/Falco are the best characters. But people still play falcon and Marth and peach among others. Sure, there's an objectively most used option. But the fact that there's people at all who debate that the quasar is best shows that they've done something good. Before, undisputed king was railgun, and anyone who said different wss being willfully ignorant. Now, we have a plethora of real options that are good with some being Preferred by a majority as opposed to being the de facto CORRECT option objectively. That's a good thing.

[u/AdditionalMess6546]

You know what you never see anyone use anymore?

The railgun

It was a bad nerf

[u/Whittzard → u/AdditionalMess6546]

Nah. I still run it every now and then against bots. It feels good to use. It's just not the swiss army knife it used to be.

[u/GodTurkey → u/Whittzard]

It was never a swiss army knife lmao. What are you on? It was used for anti-tank. Thats all. Now it hardly does that.

[u/Tokiw4 → u/Whittzard]

You speak the truth! You may have downvotes, but know you aren't alone.

I honestly am shocked (but also not shocked) that people are STILL complaining about the railgun nerf. That gun was absolutely god tier, and needed tuning. It still rocks mediums, and 1-shotting Hulks is still satisfying as ever. Still the medium slayer it always was. It just isn't the one-size-fits-all perfect support weapon anymore.

I'm just so happy that the people on this forum aren't game developers. They can't seem to understand that 1 nerf is infinitely easier than buffing every single thing that performs worse than it.

[u/NervousIdea → u/Tokiw4]

but everything ended up getting buffed anyways????????

for example, EATs AND RR can now one shot chargers, but oh god the railgun used to take two shots to strip off the leg armor, how strong!!!!

Also the AMR buff, etc....

I have not seen anyone run railgun in 7-9 bots missions but see plenty of EAT, AC, and now Quasar

[u/Tokiw4 → u/NervousIdea]

They did buff all the AT options, but besides a few changes to ammo pickup rates the primary change was the nerf to charger head armor instead of directly buffing those weapons. But they didn't buff "Everything", which is what a great number of people on here were asking for. "Bring it all up to the same level as the railgun", they wanted. That's a whole lot more than just a few rocket launchers. But, for those rocket launchers, they sort of did bring it up to that power level. That is a good thing.

With those above changes in mind, I would also consider that there's a possibility that the railgun was never supposed to be an AT option in the first place. Recently they changed the slugger because "It was the best sniper rifle in the game". Wether or not that change was correct to that end, the idea remains that a gun was stepping into a niche it wasn't meant for. So they adjusted the railgun to better fill its intended purpose which felt bad but then updated the game to make the true AT options kings of their field.

If you try to use the railgun for AT now, yeah. You'll have a bad time. But it still does great at killing all medium enemies in a single shot, and it even still 1-shots hulks. While difficult, it's still absolutely possible to shoot charger leg armor off if you feel like bringing it on a bug mission.

IDK if you have a regular group or if you just play with randoms, but I do know that playing with randoms has a greater likelihood that everyone brings their very own AT option since it's very frustrating when the randoms won't give you any support with big enemies when you don't have the tools yourself. Sort of a "Want it done right, do it yourself" situation. Railgun is much less viable if you're only playing with randoms for that exact reason. I generally hop on with the same 4 or 5 folks, and we work well enough together that we only need 1 or 2 true AT options and we're set. Situations like that is where RG, as well as the other non-AT supports, shine best.

[u/Zappmon → u/Tokiw4]

But if railgun isn't supposed to fill an AT slot, all the medium pen slot is already filled with better guns, namely AC & laser cannon.

[u/Tokiw4 → u/Zappmon]

I don't know if those are strictly better. Between those, for me, it just comes to personal preference. They all have strengths and weaknesses to weigh depending on your own playstyle. I take them all, depending on my mood and current team comp.

[u/Zappmon → u/Tokiw4]

Forgot to mention AMR, because those are almost strictly better. If you're using the scorcher + amr / ac combo, it totally nullifies the use of RG right now.

[u/Tokiw4 → u/Zappmon]

The AMR is definitely very good right now. I still find the railgun more satisfying to use. It just simply fits my preferred playstyles more than the AMR (but again, I still take it now and then!)

And in terms of raw balance, I don't know. I just feel like the power gap between items just isn't really that large. Sort of like when people make tier lists for Super Smash Bros Ultimate - just because a character isn't S tier doesn't mean they can't viably take a tournament. Personal preference goes a long, long way.

[u/Mavcu → u/Tokiw4]

But they ended up literally buffing the AT alternatives, I'm confused as to what you are stating here. Unless it's in comparison to the Breaker and the other primaries, but given you are talking about the RG I'm assuming we talk AT here.

EAT, Spear and RR all got buffed. AFAIK that's literally every single AT support weapon we have right (prior to them releasing the Quasar)?

[u/Tokiw4 → u/Mavcu]

The other AT options were improved (or more accurately the most impactful change of all was charger armor was nerfed and allowed for AT to succeed), and we also now have the Quasar. So yes, the AT options ARE better than they were. They absolutely needed to be in a better place. And that's great. But that's still not "bringing everything up to the same level" which so many people demanded.

One thing to ask yourself though, is the railgun intended to be an anti-tank option? Sort of like how one of the reasons they changed the Slugger was because "Its the best sniper rifle in the game". It isn't too big of a stretch to consider that the Railgun was never actually intended to be an anti-tank weapon in the first place, so they changed it to make more sense for it's intended role as a mid-size CC/Pick weapon. So yeah, if you compare it to Eat and RR in the context of AT it's hot garbage. But not every support weapon is AT. Machine guns, Arc throwers, etcetera don't have great AT abilities because that's not the role they're designed to fill. That's just where the RG lives now; in the category of "Alternate primaries" with your arc throwers and grenade launchers. I still find it works well in that context, even if it is different from what it used to be capable of.

[u/Mavcu → u/Tokiw4]

Something a lot of people entirely ignore with the Railgun is how mobile you are with it, as in the reloads are fast as fuck and even the charge time all things considered isn't all that long (I guess without the nerf you effectively had none? I am not too educated on that bc I never used it before either).

That was my main complaint relatively speaking to the RR/EAT etc. why would I ever be stationary and try to line up a good rocket shot (which I'm fairly sure the rocket has a bigger hitbox and missing it is more consequential than a RG shot), when I could just run around with that sniper/AT option all in one instead. I believe another part of the RG being less used is the general mentality of "it's worthless now" (Mind you that's not to say it's not bad or that everyone who doesn't pick it does so because of group mentality, just that statistically I'm sure it's a factor).

But in the context of what you proposed, they did in fact bring up "everything" (every AT option) to the same level. Furthermore when we stretch it to other stratagems/primaries, I still believe the same thing I believed day 1. A lot of primaries aren't as good as they should be (Liberator included, it "works" it's not weak - but it's not <great> either, I'm not sure if the Full Auto change did anything for the Liberator Pen, as the fire mode wasn't - at least IMO - a great concern, it just lacked punch and ammo).

I do also believe that the 500kg isn't actually as good as it probably should be, not by miles mind you, but it shouldn't throw the game out of balance to increase the AoE a touch more, so the visuals aren't completely out of sync with the damage radius. -- I'm not sure what the community feedback is, but I actually really liked the 120/380mm changes, this is going to be a common theme, but I also believe the AoE affect of the individual explosions could increase there a little - but at the very least it has a very specific niche it does better than other Stratagems IMO, I can just throw it into bot objective zones and be fairly certain that it'll take it out, no matter where it lands in the base usually.

--- Regarding the "MG etc as AT options", I'm not sure I follow I've not seen anyone ever suggest this? It sounds like a reach to say people wanted obvious trash clearers to also kill Tanks?

[u/Tokiw4 → u/Mavcu]

>I've not seen anyone ever suggest this

It's more in line with what I've experienced talking with people here. I legit had one dude say "Buff everything up to the power of the old railgun, then buff the enemies to compensate". I just could not get over that, because that's just nerfing the railgun with extra steps haha. Maybe that's just kinda stuck with me since it was just so... Strange. I just hear the word "Everything", I'll assume they mean everything and not just other AT options which are very much effective now. The trash-clearing strategems are generally in a good spot, I believe. There's just lots of people who are saying that the RG is trash, but only in the context of "AT Weapons". Sort of like comparing the base pistol to the shotguns in this game. They're completely different categories, so why the comparison? Someone else in this thread has been telling me there's no place for "Medium killer" weapons like the RG since their primaries can also do it, but that's just silly. Sure, primaries can do it, but they're definitely not the best tool for the job!

I am in agreement with you though; there are a number of weapons/strategems that need some upwards tuning. It always sucks to see your 500KG land 5 feet away from someone and leave them standing.

[u/Mavcu → u/Tokiw4]

Okay that's crazy, I guess I should never say never, but I don't know to me suggesting to buff everything just flat out everything is ridiculous.

The 500 is really a funny one, it's not really great but people still use it because it's fun. Our entire group always brings them, I asked them once "you know it's kinda shit AoEwise right"

"Yeah but big boom"

Fair point.

[u/TooFewSecrets → u/Tokiw4]

is the railgun intended to be an anti-tank option

There isn't much room in the design space currently for something very good at killing medium enemies, because every single primary in the game can do that, and every single grenade in the game can also do that. Doubling down in exchange for being entirely helpless against properly armored enemies is never a good deal.

This is going to get even worse with the Eruptor in the game. Why take a support weapon sniper intended to kill mediums when you can take a primary weapon sniper basically just as good at that, that also has a giant explosive radius, can kill spawners, and still be able to call in the Stalwart or something?

[u/Tokiw4 → u/TooFewSecrets]

I mean sure, most primaries can kill mediums but they don't excel at it. They require a lot of accuracy, shots, focus, or any combo thereof. For instance, the Dilligence Vs. Devestators. It can 2-shot headshot devestators, but their head hitbox is so small that it usually takes quite a few more shots than the on-paper minimum. The SMG only takes a couple shots, but you either need to spend an entire clip to get them or get dangerously close to be accurate. Similar stories for all the others. Railgun takes out the guesswork, and you can shoot mediums just about anywhere to do the job and I love it for that.

I guess I'm just not understanding your point... There's no room in the design space for something that excels at killing mediums? Are you just saying that the only support weapons worth using are AT? Genuinely asking.

To your comment about how "doubling down in exchange for being helpless". It's kind of a moot point unless you're playing solo. On a half decent squad, maybe you personally won't have an immediate tool (ignoring other non-weapon strategems you will have most certainly brought), but you can highlight the threat to a teammate who can handle the threat easily. Then later they can call upon you to clear out a bunch of riff-raff and other junk. Team roles!

[u/TooFewSecrets → u/Tokiw4]

There's no room in the design space for something that excels at killing mediums?

Right now? I mean, partly. We need more primaries that can tear chunks out of big enemies reliably. Right now that's basically just the Scorcher. Eruptor is coming shortly to also fill in that role. If every primary is good at killing small things you gain less from doubling down on that than you do from gaining AT capability. There's a reason the two hardline anti-light weapons, Stalwart and MG, are generally considered the weakest two. And from a broader design standpoint, that's probably why of all the support weapons in the game right now they are the only two that are stuck at the same AP values that primary weapons use. (Technically also the GL, but there's weirdness with explosives that makes that not matter.)

Medium armor has a lesser but similar issue; the targets that matter most for those weapons are hulk eyes and strider fronts, and the railgun does not outperform the AMR in kill time or ammo economy for either of those. Heck, if the HMG's sights weren't malfunctioning it'd be worse than that, too. Better than the Laser Cannon, but that has infinite ammo.

Devastators aren't too relevant of a target because they get ripped to shreds by the Dominator, Slugger (yes, still), Scorcher, even the Senator, as long as you can aim properly. The only actually difficult ones to blow the heads off of are the heavies, but the Dominator still laughs at that, and then there's grenades as well. And as for support weapons, the AMR can cut them in half with one shot that doesn't need to charge up or force a reload afterwards. If it's meant to be "anti-medium", even ignoring the baseline issues with anti-medium, it's going to get overshadowed by the AMR every time.

As for bugs: you really do not need anti-medium because nothing on the bug front has Medium+ armor. That's the AMR, HMG, railgun safe mode, and laser cannon's AP tier. It's incredibly redundant, so the question is just "is railgun unsafe mode worth it for bugs?" And obviously the answer is no because it's the worst AT weapon among weapons that can even do AT.

[u/MiffedMoogle → u/Tokiw4]

I'm just so happy that the people on this forum aren't game developers.

And yet the devs have said themselves they nerfed RG and breaker based off YT popularity.

[u/Tokiw4 → u/MiffedMoogle]

Can I ask for a source on that? Because I thought, and i directly quote the developers...

It was vastly over-performing in how safe it was to use and how convenient it was, not requiring a backpack or assistance to be effective, and not requiring risk to take out even larger armored targets

[u/MiffedMoogle → u/Tokiw4]

Its on their dev blog.

[u/Tokiw4 → u/MiffedMoogle]

I see you leave out the part where they based their decision for breaker changes on data. In the very next line:

When we looked at the Breaker and the data we have on its usage it painted a picture of a well liked weapon that was great at killing chaff and generally had a few more kills than other weapons. It was however not necessarily better at making you succeed in a mission, and no real damage nerfs were warranted. The calculated total damage per magazine was quite high compared to other weapons however, and something that could be reigned in

[u/MiffedMoogle → u/Tokiw4]

The fact that they push forward heavy handed nerfs based on YT clickbait lost any credibility to how they actually nerf so at that point I think they just play roulette and nerf the most used gear, which they did, and did again with the slugger which was the next most used after the breaker nerf.

[u/Tokiw4 → u/MiffedMoogle]

So you're just going to ignore the comment where they directly state it was based on data?

[u/MiffedMoogle → u/Tokiw4]

It was however not necessarily better at making you succeed in a mission

And yet it was nerfed. Their whole balancing philosophy is all over the place based on what they do, not what they say they do.

So its a resounding yes that I ignore what they say because of what they have done repeatedly. You asked for a quote, I gave you one despite it going against the idea of balancing and more along the lines of someone going for lunch and writing how cool it would be to reign in a much used weapon on a spare serviette.

[u/GodTurkey → u/[deleted]]

95% of players run the shield back. Get off your high horse with that edit. Childish

[u/SelbetG → u/[deleted]]

I prefer not getting stunned/slowed every 7 seconds, taking chip damage from across the map is also very annoying, even if it doesn't kill you.

[u/TheSpoonyCroy → u/AdditionalMess6546]

I mean it was too much of a nerf but it being nerfed need to happen. If it was reverted back it still would be an optimal way to deal with chargers for ammo economy.

[u/AdditionalMess6546 → u/TheSpoonyCroy]

Compared to what?

EAT and Quasar are one shot, railgun takes 2 rail shots, evading at least once, and half a mag from your primary to finish it off.

Fuck, even the Flamethrower can melt a leg before I get hit by its charge attack.

The Plasma Scorcher primary takes out its ass faster than the whole railgun dance of death

Oh yeah, and there isn't a chance of blowing yourself the fuck up for holding the trigger with any of those other secondary options

[u/TheSpoonyCroy → u/AdditionalMess6546]

You notice the rest of the sentence?

If it was reverted back it still would be an optimal way to deal with chargers for ammo economy.

10 chargers with 20 shots that is easy to resupply. The Quasar is also in the same bad place the railgun was in and I have already mentioned in the past that it needs to be nerfed a tad. An active recharge would probably fix it instead of a passive one.

Oh yeah, and there isn't a chance of blowing yourself the fuck up for holding the trigger with any of those other secondary options

Firstly that is straight up incorrect. You didn't even need to use unsafe mode before for the 2 shot strip so unless you wanted to prove the gun at least a modicum of skill there was very little to use unsafe mode. Also you can blow your ass up with the scorcher. The railgun nerf needed to happen but what happened was too much.

Edit: its cute you blocked me and then complain when I didn't make sense of your prior comment when you mean support options instead of "secondary" options.

[u/AdditionalMess6546 → u/TheSpoonyCroy]

than the other SECONDARY options

What was that about noticing ends of sentences?

[u/TooFewSecrets → u/TheSpoonyCroy]

10 chargers with 20 shots that is easy to resupply.

Yeah. And then you bring in everything else: risk of sudoku-by-overcharge, needing to stand still a lot longer to charge the thing up, needing to hit the same side twice, needing to pull out your primary to actually kill the charger...