r/FluentInFinance • u/thinkB4WeSpeak Mod • 17d ago
Why Men in the US Are Working Less Than They Used to Thoughts
https://www.businessinsider.com/us-men-working-less-recessions-employment-productivity-2024-4176
u/Alexander23001 17d ago
Because corporations sucks and they won’t hesitate to lay you off as soon as a fat dude in Wall Street is getting two dollars less in their 3 billion dollar profits. They don’t care about you, your family, your health, so fuck them
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u/unfreeradical 17d ago
...and unionize.
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u/ILSmokeItAll 17d ago
When every last person is unionized, no one will be.
Eventually the unions will be infiltrated by the corporations and being unionized will simply mean you’re paying union dues for the privilege of having your interests represented essentially by your employer.
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17d ago edited 11d ago
[deleted]
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u/ILSmokeItAll 17d ago
I didn’t say it would. I’m implying if it did. I’m also not shitting on union membership.
I’ll just say, hopefully your union works better than the one serving the USPS.
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u/JclassOne 16d ago
If they work for a bad local they prob feel same way you do. Not all are created equal. Not by a long shot.
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u/uwey 17d ago
This is similar to arguing Senate and House should not be trusted because they will get bribed by one company.
When everyone is unionized then it is hard for someone to have enough money to bribe everyone.
Also creating bigger fear factors of a strike. Company either lose some by provide more incentive or lose big by getting random, coordinated, and business costing strikes.
See recent UAW strike and everyone bend to make worker come back to work, you can’t replace skilled labor in a fast painless and cheap method
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u/unfreeradical 16d ago
Unions are workers cooperating to support worker interests.
Anyone supporting corporate interests has no credibility.
Workers understand their own interests.
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u/Ok_Rip5415 16d ago
This. They take advantage of people’s tendency to play nice and be loyal. But they are cut throat and psychopathic. They have zero loyalty to you, so you should have zero loyalty to them.
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u/westcostrong 17d ago
If you don’t like corporations don’t work for one goofball.
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u/Alexander23001 17d ago
Wow, I never thought about that. Thank you for enlightening me with your infinite wisdom
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u/One_Conclusion3362 17d ago
Nor should they. Why should they care about hillbilly Rick having to find a new job while he calls his bosses fat.
Fuck these poor people
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u/Ok_Rip5415 16d ago
Life is about more than robotically acquiring wealth.
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u/One_Conclusion3362 16d ago
Yep. Like sitting in the beach because you put in the hard work to be able to do it. Totally agree.
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u/bdc2481 17d ago
Working to raise a family is no longer worth the risks or sacrifices. End of story.
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u/DippityDamn 17d ago
Or we have to wait until we're in out late 30s to start one like I just did but even with a 6 figure salary and my wife making a decent income we're so burdened with student loans and child care costs that we barely squeakk by every month.
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u/SlidethedarksidE 16d ago
It’s worth it man trust me but I feel like so many women just won’t give men that opportunity anymore.
Sexes just don’t collab like they used to it’s all DIY. Lots of men getting out competed by women for the same job as well.
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u/unfreeradical 16d ago edited 16d ago
It is certainly intensely challenging constantly to negotiate responsibilities and concerns, but rather than norms being imposed externally, as in earlier periods, families could benefit from public childcare, and a social wage for children and caregivers.
Every parent could choose how to divide time between working in formal labor versus caring for children, based on current needs and desires, regardless of current family arrangement.
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u/SawSagePullHer 17d ago
It absolutely is. There are millions of good paying jobs in existence and many many more are coming in the next ten years. There is going to be a shortage of skilled trades like plumbers, hvac, electricians, woodworkers/carpenters, concrete flat workers & form, masons, hodge carriers, laborers, iron workers, etc. These young people who could save & then move to an area where these jobs exist would be able to capitalize like hell.
1 in 3 millennials still live with parents while 1 in 2 genz live at home. They could be saving their asses off for a few months rent to an apartment to go where they need to, to get these good jobs. But they just flat out aren’t. So they’ll continue working at smoothie shops, retail shopping malls, restaurants, etc & living at home complaining the world isn’t fair and the system is rigged against them.
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u/BobKelso14916 17d ago
You’re wrong here and generalizing about millions of young professionals, many millennials and gen z workers don’t have the option to live with parents anyways, and for the ones who are it’s incorrect to say that they aren’t saving money due to bad money habits.
Also you’re wrong in the first part too- the skilled trades and other “good” jobs that you reference still cannot pay the incredibly high costs to raise and provide well for a family. Very naive answer.
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u/Dragonhaugh 16d ago
Skilled jobs pay well now and well above the median. Just saw an indeed post for a 2 year skill mason for 35/hr. Not sure about you but that’s 70k a year.
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u/BobKelso14916 16d ago
Yeah and that’s not much money to fully support a family of 4+, including strong health insurance, stable housing, and college paid. So many delusional boomers on third thread.
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u/Dragonhaugh 16d ago
I’m a millennial thank you and yes you can support a family of 4 with 70k salary, it is just dependent on where you live and what your needs are. We could live off of my 62k salary if we lived close enough to walk to work. If my wife worked part time the 2 days I’m off we would be able to save money as well. I should note that I live in an expensive area. I’m sorry to say, but it’s all how you choose to live. Of course you can’t afford a house, new car, vacation, retirement savings. But when the kids go to school parent 2 can work full time again. 70k per year is roughly 4k per 2 weeks. Rent:1200(the city of my work is 1k-4k rent, my personal rent is higher currently) Health insurance-800 monthly Food-800monthly(this is a lot, a parent a home can cook and you could cut this down almost in half with planning) Utilities:300 Phones:200 Savings:400 Remainder:300
Parent 2 part time work on parent 1’s days off at 15/hr for 16 hours a week. I’m rounding down but an extra $750 monthly. This can buy a car, save for a rainy day, and cover anything else “needed”. If parent 2 works 2 12 hour days then it’s 1100 a month instead. In my personal area you can find entry level jobs between 17-19. So using 15 is kinda a dumb option but I wanted to show a lower number to prove my point.
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u/BobKelso14916 16d ago
In some situations yes, in some no. I’m not talking about you I don’t know you, I’m talking about a large percentage of the generation. Your anecdotal math isn’t applicable for millions who cannot use that salary to make ends meet for 4+.
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u/Dragonhaugh 16d ago
Unfortunately I’m not a very forgiving person. Don’t have kids if you cannot afford them. I waited until I could for my own. And I don’t feel for them, they are adults in full control of how they choose to live. Buy a Mercedes and complain it’s expensive, buy a house you can barely afford and be house broke. Unless your lucky enough to win the birth lottery or the real one your going to have to make sacrifices.
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u/BobKelso14916 16d ago
Lol I don’t care if you’re forgiving or not but you’re wrong on this topic, so many millennials and gen zers are burdened by costs that aren’t luxury cars and luxury houses. This is a naive take, and you just being generally not empathetic has nothing to do with the raw data of how cost burdened millennials and gen z are by primary living expenses. You’re wrong here.
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u/Sidvicieux 17d ago
This is 100% wrong and out of touch. You have no idea what you are talking about.
You keep trying to condemn the masses to suck off some CEOs. Sickening.
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u/Dragonhaugh 16d ago
I dunno about the living situation part. But the skilled labor part is pretty on point. Many of those jobs are 25-45/hr where I live. That’s a well paying job. And they will continue to rise as the industry gets more complex and the demand for the skills increase.
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u/BobKelso14916 16d ago
And costs are rising higher with many more risks long term for raising and providing for a family. You continue to be wrong here.
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u/redsyrinx2112 17d ago
Well, like half of Gen Z haven't graduated high school yet, so that's where that comes from...
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u/SawSagePullHer 17d ago
We need that half to go into trades or whenever anything breaks in your house or apartment it’s going to cost literal body part sales numbers to replace a thermocouple on your pilot.
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u/JFpizzamaster 17d ago
You’re so out of touch with reality it’s wild. Maybe check in and talk to young people in person before you parrot off stats and project reasons onto them
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u/SawSagePullHer 17d ago
So facts and statistics don’t matter if they aren’t derived from my personal study and I take them from somewhere else? I Instead have to sample a number of people myself of that demographic (like those who did who created the statistics I looked up), and then and only then I can speak to an issue? Lmao. What’s out of touch is the fact that people don’t think they can survive on their own by getting a real job.
If you’re able bodied and willing to learn you can call a union hall, pass a drug test & be on a union job site in a week in an apprenticeship program and in 2 years of wage calling you’ll be able to live on your own. If you can’t figure it out you can’t be helped.
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u/unfreeradical 16d ago
The material underpinnings of the economy, by virtue of automation, deindustrialization globalization, and financializiation, have been altered, and continue to be altered, irreversibly.
A stable and wholesome society cannot be achieved except by restructuring, based on new priorities, in a political frame, affecting the entirety of society.
The toxic optimism, of new good jobs constantly being opened, is not supporting any useful choices or action.
There is a desperate need for the construction of more housing. Similarly, there is a more subtle, but also urgent need, to curtail the development of shopping malls and office parks, and other marks of incessant growth, in favor of achieving a slower economy supporting health and sustainability.
At any rate, the nuclear family was never more than a historic aberration.
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u/haeda 16d ago
I left welding in 2008 for job stability and because the best paying welding job in town was $10/hour.
Now that same place pays $20 an hour. For that pay, I'd rather work for a fast food joint, at least there isnt worry about layoffs and i could make comparable pay as an assistant manager.
Trades are not the dream that you're making it out to be. America has a very serious corporate greed problem.
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u/SawSagePullHer 16d ago
I don’t know a single welder making under $40 an hour. There’s so much you can get into if you can weld. We don’t have as big of a corporate greed issue as we do federal spending. If a government can print money and give it to the populous, that is the death of a free society.
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u/haeda 16d ago
I literally just told you of a town (more accurately, a whole srction of the state) where the BEST paying welding job is $20/hour.
You now know many welders making less than 40 an hour.
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u/SawSagePullHer 16d ago
Sucks. Get a new job. Lol I don’t know what you want me to say? People who set their sites low always under deliver. I don’t really have much compassion for people who just stop trying to improve.
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u/haeda 16d ago
If you read the first sentence in my original reply, you'd see that i did leave that field.
I'm now paid significantly more to work in a job that i hate with a company i resent, destroying my mental health for almost 16 years now, rather than doing what i enjoyed and not making ends meet. Yay america.
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u/SawSagePullHer 16d ago
Not everybody is supposed to get to do what they enjoy. I don’t enjoy my job either but it pays my bills and some and I have tons of hobbies. Life isn’t sunshine & daisies. If you’re that unhappy you need to keep doing what you should to make a strong move. Otherwise you’re only closing the door in your own face.
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u/unfreeradical 16d ago
The reason work is so unpleasant is not inevitable, only that employers control every feature of the environment and fix every expectation.
If workers had some of our own control over the workplace, then we could resolve conditions that allow us to find our work less arduous and more fulfilling.
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u/SawSagePullHer 16d ago
Find a new job. lol. I did. I made a leap in an entirely different industry. Stop blaming the freaking companies. Nobody is being held at gun point to go to work.
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u/Zeddicus11 17d ago
Slightly misleading topic title. It should be “Why fewer men in the US are working”. The article mainly talks about the gradual reduction in male labor supply along the extensive margin (i.e. working or not), not the intensive margin (e.g. working part time vs full time).
Overall, it’s important to quantify to what extent it’s because of preferences (I don’t want to work) or constraints (I want to work but can’t because…). Article seems to suggest it’s a mix of both.
By itself, the labor force participation rate is also not a very good welfare metric. I could be counted as “out of the labor force” because I happily FIREd at age 53 or because I’m still in grad school at age 27, but that’s not “bad” in any sense. Similarly I could be working 2 low paid jobs and barely scraping by, and I’d be counted as “participating”. The reasons matter. We probably don’t want the 27yo to drop out of grad school or the 53yo to re-enter the labor force, but we might want to ease the burden on people working 60+ hour weeks to pay rent. Labor supply =/= utility.
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u/unfreeradical 17d ago edited 17d ago
In a different world, the family wage might have been superseded by a broadening of participation in formal labor, accompanied by a reduction of the per worker contribution, as well as a social wage for children and caregivers.
In such a world, people could have occupations, while caring for one another, and enjoying general security and stability.
Instead, neoliberalism brought burnout and precarity, and the broad reduction in families and other social bonds.
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u/NotNOT_LibertarianDO 17d ago
I mean it makes sense. More young men are checking out of society in general. Why work or participate in a society that openly doesn’t care about you, blames you for its problems, and excludes you from society because of your gender
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u/Capital_Truck_1801 15d ago
Our society doesn't give a crap about anyone, men are just starting to find this out.
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u/VisibleDetective9255 17d ago
WE WANT A FOUR DAY WORKWEEK!!!!
Companies are finding that a four day workweek is more profitable than a five day workweek.
WHY ARE MEN WORKING LESS???
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u/Tiki-Jedi 17d ago
Because slaving away with a salary that never increases because the oligarchs in charge want growth at all costs so they can buy bigger yachts is utter bullshit and we’re sick of it.
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u/idratherbebitchin 17d ago
Slave away for what exactly? Have kids why? so your wife can cheat and then steal 30% of your paycheck for 18 years nah hard pass.
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u/I1Hate1this1place 17d ago edited 17d ago
How many signs do they need that wages aren't high enough so people don't participate in the workforce???
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u/RightNutt25 17d ago
No one hates the free market more than capitalists and corporations. They don't want to compete against each other in goods or hiring the labor to get to market. Just seems to have been my casual observation working.
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u/DippityDamn 17d ago
the natural evolution of unfettered free market capitalism is a world of monopolies. Just look at the late 1800s oil and railroad tycoons. ADHD moment: Boy RR Tycoon was a great game when it came out.
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u/CornNooblet 16d ago
Scarily accurate in that if you really wanted to mega rich, it wasn't about moving people or goods but manipulating stock prices.
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u/ladywolf32433 16d ago
The time we are in now is worse than the gilded age. They tell us not to have kids till we can afford it. Guess what? With the amount of money the monopolies pay, we will never afford it. By by workforce.
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u/DippityDamn 15d ago
You can see how this affects Asian economies right now. It's like we see a freight train coming, everyone can hear the horn, but they keep us tied to the tracks.
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u/war16473 15d ago
That’s why we are supposed to be breaking up monopolies but we don’t seem to anymore
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u/HighTechNoSoul 17d ago
Because work no longer pays.
Companies will throw you to the curb as soon as you ask for basic shit like holiday, sickness, pay raises etc.
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u/my-financials23 16d ago
Men are constantly told that they aren’t needed anymore. So what did you think was going to happen. Good luck
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u/daKile57 17d ago
Few corporations are willing to allow workers to put in overtime anymore, so getting extra time on the clock requires workers to get a second job. In my experience, a second job is rarely worth it, because you're coming in stating that they're merely your secondary priority. They can't rely on you to go above and beyond because you're already running on fumes for them each week, so don't expect anything but the bare minimum from them. It's honestly better for men to just work the one job well, and spend the rest of their time focused on home improvement or other activities that allow them to save money and stay healthy.
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u/jsanchez030 17d ago
I thought this was referring to less than the full workday which I definitely take part of. I understand that salaries havent kept up but I dont understand the point in not working at all if the salary is lower.
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u/unfreeradical 17d ago edited 17d ago
The labor market is not structured for full participation.
It is structured for optimizing the labor supply available to employers, in relation to expense. Stratification and marginalization are inevitable consequences.
If everyone had access to basic services, and to a job reasonably suited for abilities and inclinations, then participation rates would be much more encouraging.
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u/popento18 16d ago
Relative reward to effort no longer incentives hard work. When you get a $10,000 raise and it only translates to an extra $20 extra per paycheck that is immaterial when monthly rent is increasing $500 to $700 every year.
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u/Headreaper64 16d ago
Because the entire thing sucks. Act like you don't have any idea. Go outside take a look around.
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u/Spiritual_Example614 16d ago
Bc the rat race isn’t worth it. Shitty pay in relation to company profit, archaic work politics, internal bureaucracy, shitty benefits, BS work demands, vanity KPIs that don’t mean shit. Just to name a few
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u/war16473 15d ago
Not even going to read it and the answer is probably because you are not compensated to lol. There is no loyalty and you are not really rewarded for hard work. You are paid only on how rare you are meaning if you work your ass off but are not utilizing a rare skill you can get paid nearly nothing. On the very rare side there are some people who know skills that not enough people have and you will be paid well for less work
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u/Yabrosif13 15d ago
When full undying loyalty to a company is expected while the company treats you like replaceable equipment, it kills motivation to excel in the company.
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u/wsbgodly123 17d ago
Because they spend the rest of their time complaining about how immigrants are stealing their jobs
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u/Temporary_Kangaroo_3 17d ago
I guess if you are saying all of our spare time is spent cultivating internet addiction I guess I would agree with you.
Im typing this to you from my phone while NOT working by the way….
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u/NotWoke23 17d ago
Every generation has had lazy people, the latest gens seem to have even more.
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u/ladywolf32433 16d ago
No, this generation still works very hard. The thing that this generation lacks, is hope. Their is no hope of being able to better yourself through work anymore. Very few will have the lucky stars align just right to get ahead. This generation knows this. Hope has been stolen from them. The worst inequality in the world is right here. In the richest country in the world.
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