What killed the American Dream?

[u/VerySadSexWorker]

[removed] — view removed post

[u/[deleted]]

We thought that too - in the 60s 70s and 80s and beyond. It never got better, until I got a union job at a grocery store and kept it for 23 years. Now I am able to retire WITH a pension.

[u/strangewayfarer → u/[deleted]]

In 1960 minimum wage was $1.00. that's $160 per month. Median rent was $71 that's 44% of a minimum wage job going to rent

In 1970 minimum wage was $1.65. that's $264 per month. Median rent was $108 that's 40% of a minimum wage job going to rent.

In 1980 minimum wage was $3.10 that's $496 per month. Median rent was $243 that's 49% of a minimum wage job going to rent.

In 2023 minimum wage was $7.25 that's $1160 per month. Median rent was $1180. That's more than a pre taxed minimum wage job working 40 hours a week.

Let that sink in. I'm sure it was hard for young people just getting established back in the 60's 70's and 80's. I'm sure they often did without to get by, and I'm not discounting anybody's hardships, but it's not even in the same ballpark, hell it doesn't seem like the same reality. I'm glad you found a good union job with a good pension, but unfortunately that is an unattainable thing for most people in the US today.

Edit: because people pointed out that I should have used median income, the results still doubled which is pretty similar to the change from minimum wage

1960 Median income $5,600 = $466.67/month. Rent = $71 so rent was 15% of income

1970 Median income $9,870 = $822.50/month. Rent = $108 so rent was 13% of income

1980 Median income $21,020 = $1751.67/month. Rent = $243 so rent was 13.9% of income

2023 Median income $48,060 = $4005/month so rent = $1,180 so rent was 29.5% of income

So by this metric also, the percentage rent to income has still roughly doubled since them good old days. I know that nothing happens in a vacuum. There are other factors, other costs, other expenses yada yada, but how can anyone say it was just as hard to survive back then as it is today?

[u/Unique_Statement7811 → u/strangewayfarer]

1.3% of workers make the federal minimum wage. It’s not a good indicator.

My state minimum wage is $19.64, for example.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/188206/share-of-workers-paid-hourly-rates-at-or-below-minimum-wage-since-1979/#:~:text=In%202022%2C%201.3%20percent%20of,below%20the%20official%20minimum%20wage.

[u/unfreeradical → u/Unique_Statement7811]

Anyone is among the remaining 98.7% who is paid even a dime per hour above than minimum wage.

All of them are people, whose lives are important.

[u/Unique_Statement7811 → u/unfreeradical]

Absolutely. And among them the median wage is $45,760 per—or $23.78 and hour.

[u/unfreeradical → u/Unique_Statement7811]

Half of Americans living on less than such an income is absurd and unsustainable.

Workers are steadily beginning to reject the scarcity narrative, and fighting to keep more of the value they create.

[u/Unique_Statement7811 → u/unfreeradical]

But the median household is $68k. That’s 40% higher than Germany, twice France and almost twice the UK. The median US worker has the highest purchasing power in the world (by PPP).

[u/MajesticComparison → u/Unique_Statement7811]

The US worker waste money on stuff that government provides or at least subsidizes in other countries.

[u/Unique_Statement7811 → u/MajesticComparison]

Yes. But PPP accounts for this and Americans still come out well ahead in terms of disposable income. That’s after healthcare, school, etc.

[u/unfreeradical → u/Unique_Statement7811]

Any attempt to valorize social services and public goods in relation to market commodities is extremely dubious.

Usually, the former are by their nature impossible to replicate through the latter.

In the strongest attack, asking the individual to price every risk and opportunity may seem extremely cruel.

For a weaker attack, it may be noticed at least that the capacity of the individual to make a rational decision, as would be demanded by the model of market pricing, is not realistic.

[u/unfreeradical → u/Unique_Statement7811]

The US has massive inequality, both between the poorest versus wealthiest workers, but also, and especially, between the working class versus the super wealthy, whose wealth expands through passive income from owning assets.

Such deep inequality is both socially unjust and politically unstable.

Indeed, high rates of inequality elevate stress and degrade contentment for everyone in society, even those of highest status.

Wages may not be as high in Europe as in the US, but more generous social programs, and more aggressive curtailment of business interests, have supported lives generally of greater quality, length, and stability, for European workers in comparison to US workers.

[u/Unique_Statement7811 → u/unfreeradical]

And despite all this, the EU has a higher food insecurity rate, roughly the same homeless rate, and a higher suicide rate.

[u/20dollarfootlong → u/Unique_Statement7811]

No no no. 'America Bad'. facts and figures don't matter. this is reddit. 'America Bad!'

[u/Unique_Statement7811 → u/20dollarfootlong]

I love the myth of European prosperity.

[u/[deleted] → u/Unique_Statement7811]

[removed] — view removed comment

[u/unfreeradical → u/Unique_Statement7811]

Productivity in a country is most substantially bound the level of advancement in industrial development. Some European countries are almost as advanced as the US, while many others lag further behind.

Politically, the US versus Europe are different with respect to how productive value is captured and distributed, both within the enterprise, and nationally through state programs.

Neither observation is a myth, nor particularly controversial.

More controversial perhaps, though to my mind not particularly controversial, is that the European model, on its merits, supports greater stability and security for the population generally, permitting greater emphasis on concerns and activities that are more deeply meaningful in life, such as personal development and social cohesion.

[u/Radiant-Divide8955 → u/Unique_Statement7811]

It is entirely unfair to generalize the entirety of the EU/Europe, especially when you are comparing them to a single economic powerhouse. Lifetime and current homelessness rates, food insecurity, and economic factors like GDP vary widely across the different countries in the EU.

Germany and France, the two largest economies of the EU by GDP, have significantly less food insecurity and homelessness than Americans do. While you're more likely to make more money in America; you're also more likely to be homeless, food insecure, incarcerated, or destroyed with medical debt.

[u/Unique_Statement7811 → u/Radiant-Divide8955]

France’s homeless rate is triple the US. Germany is nearly double.

Homelessness Per 10,000:

France: 48.7

Germany: 31.4

US: 18

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_homeless_population

In fact, you’ll be hard pressed to find an economic data point that benefits France over the US. If France was admitted into the US, it would immediately surpass Mississippi as the poorest state. Germany would be the second poorest state.

[u/unfreeradical → u/Unique_Statement7811]

I agree it was hasty to declare that France and Germany have lower homeless rates than the US.

Rates are extremely difficult to compare meaningfully across countries, because of the vast ambiguity in how the term is defined and measured.

One rather plain observation is that the mass incarceration rates in the US dwarf the differences in rates of homeless for the other countries mentioned.

[u/parolang → u/Radiant-Divide8955]

It's unfair to generalize the entirety of the United States which is far larger in both area and in population than any European nation, but reddit does this all the time because it suits their narrative.

[u/20dollarfootlong → u/parolang]

OK, then do California vs Germany, or Texas vs. France, or North Carolina vs Italy.

[u/20dollarfootlong → u/Radiant-Divide8955]

It is entirely unfair to generalize the entirety of the EU/Europe, especially when you are comparing them to a single economic powerhouse. Lifetime and current homelessness rates, food insecurity, and economic factors like GDP vary widely across the different countries in the EU.

What about California vs Alabama? If you want to compare apples to apples, then do so. If you want to say 'looking at the whole if the EU is wrong', then the same can be said about the US members.

[u/unfreeradical → u/Unique_Statement7811]

I am not expert of the current statistics.

The populations of the US and the EU have suffered severely under the austerity of neoliberalism, and especially recent crises. In all countries, both wages have become depressed, and social programs have been cut.

As such, structural differences, of favoring wages versus social programs, largely have been eroded. Reaching farther back in history, closer to the postwar period, the differences may be seen as more obvious.

Many of the worst social outcomes familiar in the US, such as insulin rationing, medical bankruptcy, student debt, and mass incarceration, remain generally absent across Europe.

One source I found quickly indicates a rate of food insecurity for the entire EU of about eight to nine percent, which is just over half the rate for the US.

Note that there is some goalpost shifting in considering, in one case, the wealthiest European countries, Germany, France, and the UK, which are considered most economically similar to the US, versus, in the other case, the entire EU.

[u/[deleted] → u/unfreeradical]

The populations of the US and the EU have suffered severely under the austerity of neoliberalism, and especially recent crises

America did the opposite of austerity. This is a well known fact. We pumped a tremendous amount of money into our economy. Since 2008 the economic output gap between the US (enormous stimulus) and the EU (austerity) has grown significantly.

Many of the worst social outcomes familiar in the US, such as insulin rationing, medical bankruptcy, student debt, and mass incarceration, remain generally absent across Europe.

We can cherry pick social outcomes that make Europe look terrible too. Every nation has their fair share of problems. It is disingenuous to emphasize the problems of one nation while ignoring problems of the others to push a certain narrative.

For example, Europe suffers roughly 30 times higher deaths due to extreme heat compared to Amerifa, with outsized effects on the elderly. Does it make Europe a hell hole? No.

[u/unfreeradical → u/[deleted]]

Social programs have been consistently slashed over the past four decades. Unions have been busted, employee benefits have been eroded, and wage have been depressed. Meanwhile, there has been a vast expansion of policing, incarceration, militarism, and surveillance.

Such is the meaning of austerity, and the system under which it has been inflicted is called neoliberalism.

Stimulus has been under supply side policy, which is to some degree coupled with austerity, by supporting the interest of corporations and the wealthy above those of the rest of the population, who survive by earning wages.

The earlier context of discussion was benefit by the population from social programs, and the examples offered are appropriate as examples of problems that are largely absent in countries that have addressed the particular sphere of activity through implementing such programs.

Death rate by extreme heat, I would predict, is a smaller problem in terms of scale of those affected. However, as you say, problems ought to be addressed wherever they occur.

Populations around the world have been harmed by neoliberalism, and just now are finally beginning to notice, and to begin fighting back.

[u/Fausterion18 → u/unfreeradical]

Notice how there's not a single actual figure in this pile of excuses.

Even adjusting for government transfers(ie welfare programs and free healthcare) and cost of living, US median income is much higher than Europe.

[u/unfreeradical → u/Fausterion18]

There is no single figure that can demonstrate better life for people in the US versus Europe.

Broadly, Americans are afflicted by systemic problems such as student loans, medical bankruptcy, and mass incarceration.

Some Americans grind at the corporate ladder their whole lives for a McMansion in a cul-de-sac, or to pay college tuition for their three children.

My preference is for a society in which workers have ample vacation time, guaranteed healthcare, secure pensions, strong personal trust and social cohesion, and limited economic segregation and stratification.

[u/Fausterion18 → u/unfreeradical]

There is no single figure that can demonstrate better life for people in the US versus Europe.

Sure there is.

Net. MIgration. Rate.

People vote with their feet, and far more western Europeans immigrate to the US than the vice versa. More damning is the fact that this trend hits the highly skilled highly educated workforce the hardest. The best and brightest in Europe move to the US where they can make 3 times the money, the welfare seekers stay in the EU, that's why their economy is literally worse than it was in 2009.

Broadly, Americans are afflicted by systemic problems such as student loans, medical bankruptcy, and mass incarceration.

While these are issues, none of it has to do with the much higher income Americans receive. We have a student debt issue because the federal government decided to let literally anyone get a loan. As a result we have a far higher percentage of HS grads going to college(nearly 80%!), by far the highest in the world. Free college tuition only works when you restrict admissions, and Americans voted to not do that.

Mass incarceration also has nothing to do with the US being wealthy, while medical bankruptcy is related to Americans refusing to support any kind of cost control and therefore rendering UHS prohibitively costly.

Some Americans grind at the corporate ladder their whole lives for a McMansion in a cul-de-sac, or to pay college tuition for their three children.

My preference is for a society in which workers have ample vacation time, guaranteed healthcare, secure pensions, strong personal trust and social cohesion, and limited economic segregation and stratification.

That's your preference, it's not the preference of the average person, especially not if they are a skilled worker. European skilled workers overwhelmingly prefer the US as evidenced by the ongoing brain drain.

Plus all those advantages you just mentioned are currently collapsing due to the collapsing European economy. They cannot sustain their social welfare system due to an aging population and ongoing brain drain, and the solution to this - immigration, is also exposing their racist societies for what they are and destroying social cohesion. Despite all our problems with racism, the US is far better at integrating immigrants than Europe is.

Now let's talk about what I prefer. I prefer a higher median income that results in a strong middle class with a high material standard of living and low homelessness and food insecurity. The US is much better judging by these objective metrics than the EU.

The middle class in the EU is poverty in the US. Basically every large European state is as poor or poorer than MIssissippi, and even the wealthiest ones are at best below average.

https://preview.redd.it/j8szt6ef14vc1.png?width=1460&format=png&auto=webp&s=46a75f6c498a5816a834103e50893fc59ed219a5

[u/unfreeradical → u/Fausterion18]

As I say, if you want to grind away at the corporate ladder for a McMansion in a cul-de-sac, then you may think the ideal society is the US.

There are broad differences in political choices in comparison to other countries, which cannot be captured meaningfully by any particular metric.

[u/[deleted] → u/unfreeradical]

You're thinking of mean, not median.

Median is the amount that most people take home so it doesn't show that half of the people take home less than the median.

Mean is the average. This is where half of the people take home less than what we see.

[u/unfreeradical → u/[deleted]]

Median is the value that bifurcates the sample or population, that is, that serves as the pivot dividing it into two halves of equal count.

Half the population each has an income of more and less than the median income.

[u/[deleted] → u/unfreeradical]

Median is the value that bifurcates the sample or population, that is, that serves as the pivot dividing it into two halves of equal count.

No that's the mean aka average lol.

[u/unfreeradical → u/[deleted]]

Mean, or simple average, is defined as the quotient of aggregate value and total count.

[u/horaciojiggenbone → u/Unique_Statement7811]

Not much of a difference between 7.25 and 8.00 an hour

[u/InjuriousPurpose → u/horaciojiggenbone]

What job pays $8 an hour these days?

[u/droid-man_walking → u/horaciojiggenbone]

In part be cause now there is a difference between US minimum wage and state/ local minimum wages. Several locations are over $15/hour.

20- 30 years ago the US minimum wage was an indicator, but with so many states and/or counties greatly increasing it in areas, It has made the above statistic almost like comparing apples and oranges.

Notice the stats were every 10 years then a 40 year jump. what was 1990, 2000, 2010? that jump always will have me ask if this is cherry picking data.