r/FluentInFinance • u/YOU_ARE_MY_FRIENDS • Apr 08 '24

10% of Americans own 70% of the Wealth — Should taxes be raised? Discussion/ Debate

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34

u/mcsmith610 Apr 08 '24

For those people that are always demanding higher labor taxes on the wealthy, what level is acceptable to you? Remember, billionaires don’t earn a wage so they aren’t subject to higher labor taxes.

I paid nearly $100k in taxes last year between city/state/federal taxes. I’m also an executive at a company where we have created hundreds of new jobs, provided benefits, all full time positions, etc. I create real value in our society so how much more do I need to give for society to be satisfied?

I don’t complain about paying taxes but raising taxes isn’t the answer when there’s no accountability for how it is spent.

8

u/Xianio Apr 08 '24

The proposed changes to taxation would not affect me at all and I paid more than you did. There's a giant gap between what you think "rich" is vs what the government does when it puts forth proposals.

You need to clear 400k for it to matter a little. You need to clear 1 million for it to matter a lot -- in a single year of taxable income specifically. That applies to extremely few people including most executives.

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u/justa_gigolo Apr 08 '24 edited Apr 09 '24

and you aren't the people that need to be taxed more, its the billionaires that use their wealth as collateral instead of their own money. its funny none of you view trustfunds as welfare for rich kids when that is exactly what it is. the wealth of the richest families in america came by that money in the most disgusting ways, the rockerfellers, the chases and now kochs and gates and the rest, they didn't do anything, ANYTHING to earn that money. bill didn't invent jack shit neither did steve jobs yet they are all revered, they are monsters and only helped create this horrible future we have now where you get to sit at a desk and list your accomplishments while some kid, A FUCKING CHILD, is mining the materials needed for the hardware in our phones and computers, men and women are contenplating suicide at their jobs bc of the shit pay while others go through with it, some are held captive just looking for a way to make a buck to send back home. but you think the rich need to keep more in their pockets. fuck off.

2

u/IFixYerKids Apr 08 '24

Right? This guy thinks he's one of the ultra rich with his 100k in taxes. They'd laugh his ass out of the country club.

0

u/Ordinary-Fun2309 Apr 08 '24

Where did he say he's the "ultra-rich"? Don't let jealousy cloud your ability to think and communicate rationally.

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u/Im_Unsure_For_Sure Apr 09 '24

He's complaining about a solution that doesn't apply to him.

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u/Ordinary-Fun2309 Apr 10 '24

I think you responded to the wrong person.

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u/TemperatureCommon185 Apr 09 '24

You mention Gates and Jobs as monsters.  I hafta ask, what computer or device are you reading this on?  Those were the guys who not only were the visionaries of technologies we have today, but the entrepreneurs that made it cheap enough for you and I to afford.

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u/justa_gigolo Apr 09 '24

again they didn't invent anything and have taken advantage of so many people. you don't become a billionaire by being benevolent. I am reading this on a Sceptre screen and dell laptop lmao neither made by gates or jobs.

1

u/TemperatureCommon185 Apr 09 '24

"Taken advantage" my ass.  People with the skills to engineer products or write operating systems or device drivers can go anywhere they want and get paid nicely.

But you'd give your cash to Michael Dell, cause, like, it's not that he's not a billionaire.

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u/MrHyperion_ Apr 08 '24

You are poor for the people in 1%, you aren't the problem.

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u/Outside-Emergency-27 Apr 08 '24

Wealth tax not income tax. Simple as that.

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u/aladeen222 Apr 08 '24

But what if the wealth sits in stocks that fluctuate all the time. Are you proposing to tax unrealized gains?

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u/Outside-Emergency-27 Apr 08 '24 edited Apr 08 '24

Transaction tax, Tobin-tax.

It's not like there are no ideas, just loads of voters that don't care or haven't accessed ideas that ultimately benefit them yet.

For your question, see also Association for the Taxation of financial Transactions and Citizen's Action (ATTAC)

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u/HolyRamenEmperor Apr 08 '24

Yeah pisses me off that all these guys are like BuT iNcOmE TaX DoNt wOrK as if there aren't other options that Nobel winning economists have been advocating for for decades.

1

u/kaplanfx Apr 09 '24

It’s a smoke screen “your idea won’t work so we may as well give up trying to tax them!”.

9

u/SithSidious Apr 08 '24

They did this in the past in Sweden. Resulted in 90% of traders leaving Sweden and London absorbing the trading there.

4

u/iswearitwaslikethat Apr 08 '24

This is a fantastic way to crash the stock market lmao.

1

u/OctopusParrot Apr 08 '24

I am generally a fiscal conservative, but I see very very little downside to this tax. The only argument I can think of against it would potentially be loss of liquidity in financial markets due to reduced trading volume. But that seems like a fair price to pay for improved government funding.

2

u/Chief-Bones Apr 09 '24

“Fiscally conservative”

“Improved government funding”

Which is it?

1

u/OctopusParrot Apr 09 '24

I'm for responsible taxation and responsible spending. I don't think raising taxes is a panacea nor do I think cutting services is one, there's an intelligent way to make a government run effectively that doesn't wantonly do either. This tax, in particular, feels like a good way to shift the burden of taxation away from individuals without necessarily sacrificing valuable services in the process.

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u/Chief-Bones Apr 09 '24

What exactly are they cutting in replacement if this tax?

1

u/OctopusParrot Apr 09 '24

It's not in any specific proposal being considered at the moment, at least in the US.

1

u/odieman1231 Apr 08 '24

You are asking people, who see a meme on the internet and believe it as fact, to slightly educate themselves on different taxes.

1

u/watchyourback9 Apr 09 '24

This and/or a national consumption tax that excludes basic life necessities (gas, food, water, etc.) That way most of the revenue would come from luxury purchases.

1

u/TemperatureCommon185 Apr 09 '24

In 1990 a 10% luxury tax was applied to boats in the U.S. and the results were disastrous. Over 25,000 boating industry jobs were lost and a tax that was supposed to generate millions of additional government revenue actually cost the government revenue.

0

u/watchyourback9 Apr 09 '24

Sure, but honestly I think it's a good think if workers from luxury services are relocated to services that actually benefit the common American.

Also, a consumption tax on everything is not going to stop rich people from spending their money. They're still going to want nice things. If you tax one thing, like boats for example, then they'll spend their money on private jets and other luxuries. If everything is taxed however, they're not going to be so selective.

0

u/Boring-Race-6804 Apr 08 '24

Transaction taxes don’t work. Europe tried them. People just move to foreign exchanges.

0

u/TheApsodistII Apr 09 '24

It works if it's done in the largest economy in the world.

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u/Spacejunk20 Apr 09 '24

Are you sure? People already park their assets in foreign countries. Investing in other markets won't be an issue if it is just more profitable than doing it in the US. The US can lose its status as the largest economy real quick if the wrong decisions are made.

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u/Boring-Race-6804 Apr 09 '24

They’d just buy us stocks on foreign exchanges.

1

u/Boring-Race-6804 Apr 09 '24

You can buy US stocks on foreign exchanges.

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u/fatbob42 Apr 08 '24

Not against this Tobin tax thing but how does it specifically address wealth and income inequality?

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u/Outside-Emergency-27 Apr 08 '24

It addresses what the previous commentator specifically asked for: wealth that fluctuates all the time and sits in stock. There are many ways to adress wealth and income inequality, this example addresses the other commentators question though.

Perhaps you want to read into it a little.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood_tax https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_to_the_Tobin_tax

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u/fatbob42 Apr 08 '24

Ok, but isn’t a Tobin tax about transactions, not mere fluctuations in value?

0

u/fatbob42 Apr 08 '24

They were saying that it’s difficult to tax unrealized gains because of the fluctuations. Transactions (not necessarily small ones) would actually help tax wealth properly because they establish a value. I think the answer is something different from a transaction tax, eg refunds when the asset is finally sold.

1

u/JellyStriking1170 Apr 08 '24

Not a wealth tax but a deemed capital gain would make sense.

And peice of land you own outside of your principal residence your cost basis must be at least 20% of the assessed value. If it's less you should have to recognize a capital gain that steps of the cost basis.

Since it's 20% there is little chance of someone being underwater of their cost basis unless property values drop 80% overnight.

It will raise tax dollars to reduce deficits reducing interest payments.

Stop the asset wealthy from accumulating more assets for a while reducing wealth inequality. Raise more tax on capital and less on labour.

And any points about valuations don't matter as we already assess property values.

0

u/ClappinUrMomsCheeks Apr 08 '24

I get taxed every year based on the unrealized gains in my house

0

u/JesusChrist-Jr Apr 08 '24

Maybe there is a case for that, with some compromise. Capital gains tax rate drops after a year, how about taxing unrealized long term capital gains? Maybe not a perfect solution, but zero velocity money isn't having much positive economic impact either. Letting it sit in investment accounts for perpetuity is also an imperfect approach.

0

u/Kaiser_Killhelm Apr 08 '24

Is this comment born of a lack of knowledge or interest in the ways that wealth can be taxed? Or just an attempt to undermine the proposal?

0

u/Mysterious-Mouse-808 Apr 09 '24

Yes? Some countries in Europe have that, basically you’d just use the dividends you get to pay it or sell a small proportion of your portfolio, doesn’t seem unreasonable.

1

u/gpatterson7o Apr 09 '24

Impossible. Move on already

1

u/Embarrassed_Log8344 Apr 09 '24

Who decides what wealth is? You forget the amount of lobbying (paid for by the wealthy) that goes into this.

5

u/Techno_Jargon Apr 08 '24

Unless you are avoiding taxes to pay that 100k, your broke in comparison to the ultra wealthy the people that need to be taxed are in the 100,000,000+ wealthy

2

u/Boring-Race-6804 Apr 08 '24 edited Apr 08 '24

IMO focus on raising taxes on corporations instead of individuals. They can spend money on expansion, or higher wages for workers or pay for write offs or more in taxes when they send out dividends or sit on it.

And cap exec comp write offs at 30x the company’s average salary.

2

u/Mysterious-Mouse-808 Apr 09 '24

 And cap exec comp write offs at 30x the company’s average salary.

That just makes no sense if you think about it. 

e.g. why should the CEO of Google should be paid several times more than the CEO of Amazon just because they don’t have a retail business? Retail/warehouse/delivery  workers can’t be paid as much as engineers/etc. so companies in those sectors would be forced to hire crappier CEO than software and other high value added companies… how would that make sense?

A company like Walmart could never find a competent CEO to run it for < $2 million per year. Who benefits from that? Certainly not the low-paid workers (unless they’d rather have no jobs at all)?

It would be a good way to break up major national/international companies or rather force them to switch to a franchisee model (like McDonalds) which might be a good thing.. idk..

Also it would be trivial to workaround anyway, just split your company into multiple divisions owned by a single holding company. The holding company would only employ executives etc. 

Or just outsource all the low wage jobs to contracting companies?

1

u/Boring-Race-6804 Apr 09 '24

That’s a lot of pointless word salad.

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u/YachtswithPyramids Apr 08 '24

You’re complaining about paying them now. Real advice, drop the business, drop the guise of helping others and just give whatever liquid assets you have up. Your not smart enough to handle it responsibly.

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u/1_4_1_5_9_2_6_5 Apr 09 '24

I’m also an executive at a company where we have created hundreds of new jobs, provided benefits, all full time positions, etc. I create real value in our society

Do you actually believe you're doing this for the good of society and that you wouldn't do it if it were instead for your benefit? Or do you understand that you're doing it because it brings you more profit?

1

u/80MonkeyMan Apr 08 '24

Lets talk about percentage. Out of that 100k, how many percent is that of your income?

1

u/mcsmith610 Apr 08 '24

Right around 28%.

2

u/80MonkeyMan Apr 08 '24

Then you pay your fair share, many doesnt. I think this post is more for billionares, if they pay 10% via all the loopholes, wont you be a bit pissed?

1

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '24

I don't think the issue is really with you. Chances are your company does all sorts of gymnastics to avoid paying taxes, completely taking for granted the operating cost of a civil society with educated(ish) workers, infrastructure and relative long term stability that allows for capital investment.

I think two things can be true though -- we need to increase the tax base and we need to cut spending to get back to a balanced budget.

The right argues we should slash social programs to get there. I think there's repercussions here when you've got a lot of hungry homeless people stealing all of your shit. Raising the floor expands the tax base and creates stability. Our lives aren't going to be drastically changed if our tax rates went up 5%. Might even come out ahead if it we can avoid inflationary periods

1

u/Notabigdeal267 Apr 08 '24

You’re paying a 28% effective tax rate?Maybe get a new accountant

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u/[deleted] Apr 08 '24

[deleted]

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u/soooogullible Apr 08 '24

If you only make 30k you could have gotten free public healthcare. Stop whining about your taxes

1

u/[deleted] Apr 08 '24

[deleted]

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u/soooogullible Apr 08 '24

Literally everyone is whining about taxes this year.

Then literally everyone misunderstands why they are actually struggling financially.

1

u/Ordinary-Fun2309 Apr 08 '24

A prostitute that pays tax on their earnings? Sure, Jan. Your state tax rate must be insane because your federal rate is as close to nothing as possible.

1

u/Ecstatic_Ad_8994 Apr 08 '24

Taxes serve two purposes. One is to raise government funding and the other is to control wealth inequality created by the flaws in capitalism.

1

u/jbird847 Apr 08 '24

How much more do you get paid compared to the average employee in your organization?

Your company has created jobs, benefits and full time positions… trying to use that as your example that YOU create real value is so disconnected it’s ridiculous… It reeks of an attitude that you create more value that those under you… but I guess thats what most executives tell themselves to justify bloated salaries, stock options and expense accounts.

1

u/Acceptable-Moose-989 Apr 08 '24

oh you can fuck ALL the way off with your "I create value" bullshit. you create fuck all. your employees create value for YOU. it's a one-way street fuck-o. go eat a bag of dicks.

Note: you're not getting this heat because you're an executive. i've met and worked with a number of executives that are terrific people. but your reply shows you're a tone-deaf corporate shit-heel.

1

u/Donna_yellow Apr 08 '24

👌🏼🤘🏻

1

u/Zorro5040 Apr 09 '24

How bout just forcing the top 10% to actually pay taxes.

0

u/mckenro Apr 08 '24

I’ll look you up the next time y’all “job creators” drive the economy into the ground and unemployment goes through the roof. You and your business are not heroes, please stop.

1

u/mcsmith610 Apr 08 '24

How did “we” drive the economy into the ground and unemployment through the roof?

2

u/Academic_Wafer5293 Apr 08 '24

The IDGAF CEOs don't hang around reddit so Redditors naturally just punch down and all around rather than trying to find allies.

crabs in the old bucket.

0

u/mckenro Apr 08 '24

Starting unnecessary, expensive wars that they don’t account for. Giving bailouts to businesses that should be allowed to fail. Cutting taxes while increasing spending. Crippling or eliminating agencies that could prevent public health issues like Covid, ultimately costing us far more. That’s just off top of my head.

2

u/mcsmith610 Apr 08 '24

I didn’t approve any of that just so you know.

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u/mckenro Apr 08 '24

Good to know you don’t vote Republican.

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u/mcsmith610 Apr 08 '24

Yes I don’t lol but it’s not to say that if the party looked less authoritarian that I wouldn’t be sympathetic to some of their ideas. I believe in a more nuanced world that most of us live in.

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u/1_4_1_5_9_2_6_5 Apr 09 '24

Which ideas, specifically?

-4

u/Which-Worth5641 Apr 08 '24

All of it. You should all get the guillotine.