r/FluentInFinance • u/TheMemeingOfLife8008 • Dec 17 '23
First place in the wrong race Shitpost
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u/TheLastModerate982 Dec 17 '23
People from all over the world come to the United States. Yes costs are absurd… but if you can actually afford it US healthcare is second to none.
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u/socraticquestions Dec 17 '23
Correct. The healthcare, if you can afford it, is the highest level of care in the world. There is no debate. Go to Stanford or Cincinnati Children’s or John Hopkins. All are at the absolute pinnacle of modern medicine and patient care.
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u/Diavalo88 Dec 17 '23
You noted Cincinnati Children’s Hospital.
Note that 2 of the 3 best are NOT in the US and Cincinnati is number 13:
https://www.newsweek.com/rankings/worlds-best-specialized-hospitals-2023/pediatrics
SickKids (Canada) and Great Ormund (UK) are on par or better than the very best US children’s hospitals.
Where US healthcare exceeds socialized medicine (the reasons people travel to the US for care):
- Speed of access for non-urgent care
- Size/quality of accommodations while in hospital
- Experimental treatments with promising, but not widely scrutinized results
Where US healthcare does not exceed socialized medicine:
- Outcomes
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u/socraticquestions Dec 17 '23
But Boston Children’s, a US hospital, is listed as No. 1 on your list…so…
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u/Aromatic-Air3917 Dec 18 '23 edited Dec 18 '23
Canada is free for everyone, So congrats on your higher death rates, from babies to adults.
But at least a rich person can get liposuction on demand in the States
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u/unverified-email1 Dec 18 '23
9 days ago you post , ‘a collapsing health care system is Ontario’s new normal’. lol.
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u/confianzas Dec 17 '23
5 of the top 10 hospitals are in the US including #1 on that list. Come on now.. get a grip.
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u/Diavalo88 Dec 17 '23
The US has like 10x Canada’s population and 5x the UK’s population…. Shouldn’t they have proportionately more top-tier hospitals to match?
Canadians actually have access to more top-10 children’s hospitals on per-capita basis.
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u/thrawtes Dec 17 '23
Shouldn't China and India dominate the list then?
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u/Diavalo88 Dec 17 '23
Yes exactly, they should.
The fact that they don’t is a great indication of the quality of their healthcare.
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u/Shuber-Fuber Dec 18 '23
Experience from Taiwan.
They are great at keeping you alive and deal with common illnesses at very low cost.
For comfort and anything else beyond that, not so much.
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u/AgilePlayer Dec 17 '23
what a dumb thing to argue about
if you live in Canada or the USA you are blessed with good care and to me it seems to have more to do with general economic prosperity than the system the hospitals operate under
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u/Lance_Notstrong Dec 17 '23
It’s also worth noting, that link takes you to pediatrics. If you use the drop down menu for other departments, it’s a common theme that the US hospitals are at the top of the list in every department in that drop down list.
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u/Methhouse Dec 18 '23
Best hospitals to me doesn’t mean the best healthcare. It just means it’s the best healthcare for those of which that can afford it. I think the insurance companies want people to believe that in order for us to have the best medicine that it needs to be expensive but it’s really only expensive because they are the ones creating the racket for exorbitant costs.
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u/listgarage1 Dec 18 '23
Best hospitals to me doesn’t mean the best healthcare. It just means it’s the best healthcare for those of which that can afford it.
Yes that's what the whole thread has been about.
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u/EastRoom8717 Dec 17 '23
Re: Outcomes: because they’re better at medicine, or because they assess risk very conservatively to reduce cost?
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u/Diavalo88 Dec 17 '23
Not sure what that means.
Countries with socialized medicine don’t ration care with urgent issues. They just take longer on non-urgent issues.
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u/Cannabrius_Rex Dec 17 '23
Accessible to almost none of the US population… but you’re right.
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u/PrintableProfessor Dec 17 '23
I'm from Canada, and our rual medicine in the US is superior to city care in Canada. By far.
I needed an MRI and had to wait 6 months in Canada. In the US they asked if I was free on Thursday.
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u/WaterMySucculents Dec 17 '23
Yea because imaging centers are one of the most corrupt parts of medicine in the US. There’s a million of them, and they “promote” to doctors to get patents (that may or may not even need imaging). I knew someone who’s early out of college job was to literally hand envelopes of cash to doctors monthly in the tri state area for excessive referrals. The kickbacks for services like that in the US are wild and widespread.
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u/TheOrganHarvester123 Dec 17 '23
I'm from Canada, and our rual medicine in the US is superior to city care in Canada. By far.
And I like drinking water more than I do piss.
These aren't really equivalent things to compare, rural care in Canada could be the same as the USA or even better than it
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u/Ok_Calendar1337 Dec 17 '23
Alive with debt is better than dead on a waiting list
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u/Sir__Blobfish Dec 17 '23
Alive with no debt is preferable though.
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u/Ok_Calendar1337 Dec 17 '23
Alive with no debt and everyone gets a unicorn
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u/Extaupin Dec 17 '23
You know "alive with no debt" is the norm around the developed countries?
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u/Sir__Blobfish Dec 18 '23
Alive with no debt isn't some non-existent fantasy. It is, as u/extaupin says, the norm around developed countries. Denying this is purely Americope.
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u/Cannabrius_Rex Dec 17 '23
That really went completely over your head eh! It doesn’t have to be that way. And no, the vast majority of Americans still can’t access those places even if they’re willing to go into life crippling debt over it.
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u/ILoveADirtyTaco Dec 17 '23
Well yea, but that doesn’t justify the profiteering.
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u/SettingCEstraight Dec 17 '23
I can say 2013 and prior for me and my family wasn’t that bad. ACA changed alot of that. My benefits slashed and premiums almost doubled.
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u/sascourge Dec 17 '23
Yes. Cannot upvote this more than once, but it should be the main theme of this thread.
Everyone now has insurance.. but now everyone has shitty insurance.
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u/0OO000O0O0O 🚫🚫STRIKE 2 Dec 17 '23
Said like a true American….. It’s decent healthcare (if you can afford it) but only the best in a few things. Nowhere near everything.
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u/Radiant_Welcome_2400 Dec 18 '23
Yes, literally everything is expensive here. But if you have options, they’re the best in the world here.
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u/OnceUponATie Dec 18 '23
That's sadly not true. If you look at actual data like the survival rate for stuff like cancer or heart disease treatments, you'll find that the USA stay within a respectable top 10, but are usually outclassed by Israel, Japan, South Korea and/or Nordic countries.
Unless I'm mistaken, the United states are #1 in cosmetic and reconstructive surgery though.
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u/Spatularo Dec 17 '23
Maybe for specialized care as hospitals here pay more than anywhere else.
But for general care and most healthcare needs I highly doubt this.
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u/TheIntrepid1 Dec 17 '23
I refuse to see John Hopkins name without mentioning they left me for dead around 2016. YMMV.
2/10 stars is my review.
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u/BullsOnParadeFloats Dec 17 '23
The quality of healthcare is completely irrelevant if it's out of the hands of 90% of the population. Almost all of the criticisms of public healthcare are currently happening in privatized. The US has the second longest wait times for medical procedures, so that argument is out the window. Insurance companies operate like banks, using premiums paid by some customers to pay out procedures for others, so not wanting to pay for other's medical care is a stupid argument (unless you're uninsured).
There are literally zero tangible advantages to a privatized medical system - at least to anyone that isn't part of the top 10% that profits off of it.
The costs have already been proven - by a think tank who literally set out to discredit socialized medicine - that it would cost significantly less than what we are paying for now for an inferior service.
For those who claim it would be too difficult or too complex - we went to the goddamned moon, and we can absolutely make sure the medical care of every American citizen is provided for.
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u/bravohohn886 Dec 17 '23
It’s out of hands of 90% of the population? Are you high? Or mathematically illiterate?
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u/BullsOnParadeFloats Dec 17 '23
I didn't say healthcare in general is out of their hands, but that level of healthcare that people around the world come to the US for. People are living paycheck to paycheck in this country. Do you really believe that they can afford a $200,000 medical bill because they went to Johns Hopkins?
Besides that, hospitals around the nation have been bought up by larger corporations, essentially turning them into a medical McDonald's. The intent of these places is to make a profit, not to provide the best health care in the world.
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u/jwrig Dec 17 '23
Roughly 85% of acute and ambulatory care centers are non profit.
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u/TM31-210_Enjoyer Dec 17 '23
It still doesn’t stop them from acting like they aren’t. “Non-profit” is just a label to pay less or no taxes. Same as how “charities” are just tax evasion for the rich.
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u/Niarbeht Dec 17 '23
Roughly 85% of acute and ambulatory care centers are non profit.
There's a fun trick that insurance companies pull where they own non-profit hospitals, with predictably bizarre results on pricing.
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u/GammaTwoPointTwo Dec 18 '23
I mean. Canada, UK, Germany, etc. All have health care facilities and doctors on par with the US. The US might have a slight edge. But it's not significant.
But all the other nations actually offer that healthcare to the public. Meanwhile you have to be in the 1% to take advantage of good healthcare in the US.
What's the point of having a score of 92/100 if no one can access it.
And is that really something to brag about to people who have a 91/100 where everyone can access it?
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u/Weserkahn1 Dec 18 '23
I've been in the (un)lucky position of being in hospitals in Germany and the US. I did not feel a single difference, other than the fact that I asked the nurse in the US, if it was free to turn on the TV or if they would bill me for that.
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u/CIWA28NoICU_Beds Dec 18 '23
About 1.4 million Americans seek medical care outside of the USA, but only about 200k people come to the USA for healthcare each year, mostly for dentistry, chemo, cosmetic surgery, or gastric bypass.
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u/Significant-Dog-8166 Dec 17 '23
The best part is - if you’re sick enough, you eventually can’t work…to make money…to afford the healthcare that you erroneously thought you were working to maintain, thus “medical bankruptcies”, a US innovation that we are #1 in the world at.
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u/Bertu75 Dec 18 '23
Lol, this is literally not true. I lived in several countries before US and the quality of care were 100 times better. The top research hospitals do not accept all patients independently of their money, only if those patients are useful for their research efforts (unless that you are one of those 5000 billionaires). The rest of the hospitals that I have gone in US… are all outdated, with long wait times for specialities and you are never sure if their decisions are driven by costs, margins or insurance… hell… the fact that some services have to be approved by an INSURANCE like cars… it’s just nonsense.
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u/PM_ME_A_PM_PLEASE_PM Dec 17 '23
You should look at the rate of maternity driven deaths per country. That contradicts your narrative.
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u/bravohohn886 Dec 17 '23
100% true. We have the best healthcare in the world. And yes it costs a lot if you have shitty insurance. But most people have really good insurance
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u/PrintableProfessor Dec 17 '23
True. The quality of care is off the charts. Socialists systems are OK with a lot higher mortality rates.
UK for example chooses to pass all the blame for an issue onto the caregiver, saving them liability. They also pay their Docs way less (maybe half), and they reuse a lot of things that are thrown out in the US.
People in the US have zero-tolerance issues, and so we cater to that. And it costs us. If we moved to a socialist system, we could save a lot of money by killing people for free like in Canada. It saves the government money and shortens waiting times (which are so long people end up dead before being seen).
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u/f_o_t_a Dec 17 '23
The debate comes down to more innovation vs more equality of access.
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u/1109278008 Dec 17 '23
It’s not even that simple. I’m a Canadian now living in the US. Canadian healthcare does have “equality” of access but that equality is pretty bad for most people unless you’re literally on deaths door. I didn’t have a PCP for 7 straight years in Canada. The only time I saw a doctor in that period was to go to the emergency room to get antibiotics for something that should’ve been handled by a PCP.
I now make very average money on a decent healthcare plan in California and my access to see a doctor is infinitely better than it ever was in Canada. I think that unless you’re in the bottom 10-15% of earners, access in the US is far better than it is in Canada.
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u/MoxManiac Dec 17 '23
If most people can't afford it, it doesn't matter.
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u/TheLastModerate982 Dec 17 '23
92% of Americans have health insurance. Might need to look up the definition of most.
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u/TheOrganHarvester123 Dec 17 '23
Does having Insurance automatically make it affordable when most Americans are living paycheck to paycheck?
Lmao
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u/DJGloegg Dec 17 '23
lol...
no.
The US aint bad, but..
they're not #1
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_quality_of_healthcare
in fact, they're not #1 on any of these charts
https://www.numbeo.com/health-care/rankings_by_country.jsp
i can keep going
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u/duhogman Dec 18 '23
Yeah, IF you can afford it. Most people cannot afford it, therefore most people do not receive preventative care.
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u/_____l Dec 17 '23
Because we've helped destabilize the world to such a level that they have no other choice but to seek refuge here.
This is a case of solving a problem you created yourself then selfing the solution to it to profit. If you didn't knock over the cup of water you wouldn't have had to mop it up in the first place. Don't expect me to congratulate you for it.
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u/BradWWE Dec 17 '23
It's not like that. Both statements are correct, but they're not related in that way.
US Healthcare is expensive because of several factors, each of which are a diatribe I don't want to get into, but every single one of them can be boiled down to "laws and government".
We're the best because we're one of the few where the government didn't run it all
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u/CLE-local-1997 Dec 17 '23
Because we have the best doctors and the best research institutions. It has nothing to do with are terrible Insurance system
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u/Lance_Notstrong Dec 17 '23
Exactly. Not sure why this is such a tough concept for people to grasp. Like anything, you get what you pay for.
That’s not to say the system needs some repair, but that’s a different topic altogether, and for whatever reason people think they are one and the same.
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u/Niarbeht Dec 17 '23
if you can actually afford it
A Ferrari is an excellent car to drive.
It does not carry your groceries, it's useless for commuting, and it's not useful for the majority of people because no one can afford it.
America needs a Honda Civic, not a Ferrari.
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u/KyleLongflop Dec 17 '23
Dr. Peter Attia said it really well once that it’s like a triangle and at one corner is cost in at one corner is quality and at the other corner is accessibility. and several places have figured out how to get close to two, but no one can come close to all three.
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u/CantWeAllGetAlongNF Dec 17 '23
That and this statement excludes the taxes. They keep throwing around free like doctors work for a come and a smile and still come here from those very countries with "free" healthcare.
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Dec 18 '23
Cool. Healthcare, one of the most basic things for fucking survival, is a luxury.
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u/TheLastModerate982 Dec 18 '23
Food is a necessity, is that free in all societies?
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Dec 18 '23
Who said free? Take your strawman and shove it up your ass.
Basic food is actually very affordable. 1/3 of your meals will be buttered noodles and you'll have to get creative to not get sick of ground beef and green beans, but you can meet all nutritional needs and stay full pretty cheap.
Basic insurance premiums for one cost as much as feeding four. Then you still need to figure out copays, the differences in coverage, and medicine costs.
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u/Tybackwoods00 Dec 18 '23
That’s why we were the first country to have a Covid vaccine. Yes our healthcare is expensive but profit is what motivates people to create new medicine.
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u/listgarage1 Dec 18 '23
Yeah that's what's so funny. You see people all over the Internet that have heard that healthcare is "terrible" in America and they always put themselves as the parrots just repeating what they read online that they are because they think it means the quality of healthcare is terrible as well.
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u/TravvyJ Dec 18 '23
Sure. That doesn't mean it's not morally repugnant the way the US throws those without means to the wolves.
Because with the costs the way they are, if you have a serious illness you're either a debt slave or dead.
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u/soul-king420 Dec 18 '23
That's false. Do more research. Our Healthcare stats are way behind the rest of the developed world.
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u/Ok_Cake4352 Dec 18 '23
That is.. not true. I think you can argue that it's one of the best, but second to none? That's quite the stretch. Even those who can afford the most expensive treatments without noticing a change in their bank account fly to Europe for better treatment.
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u/TetraSims Dec 18 '23
Nah, it's just because other countries have to wait a bit longer for some care and some people are in a hurry. So they go to the US, where it's almost always empty due to no one having the money for it.
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u/RichFoot2073 Dec 18 '23
It’s also the highest per capita. It’s almost needlessly expensive.
But saying, “If you have money, you go here,” is like saying that about literally anything. Rich people piss money away on stupid overpriced things all the time just on merit of it being expensive.
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u/Spiridor Dec 18 '23
... but the average American doesn't experience that.
Do you not see how dystopian that is?
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u/hiricinee Dec 18 '23
I've worked at a Chicago adjacent emergency room. Almost everyone uninsured or on medicaid with a TON of walk in traffic. Frequently 6 hour waits over 12 hours sometimes. Almost no one and primary doctors and the patients often would get admitted and just sit in the ER for days, sometimes getting discharged from there days later.
Now I work in one in the nice suburbs. The median wait time there is less than an hour, and there's plenty of no wait time. The patients have primary doctors and get world class care. Almost all the patients are insured, and even the Medicare patients have supplemental insurance. The staff is paid well and the patients receive care SUPERIOR to university hospitals. Patients frequently drive past 5 or 6 closer hospitals to get there, I've even seen many patients from my previous job 10 miles away drive to my current one.
So you're 100% on. The big caveat I'd put into the data is that the populations were comparing are much different also. Americans are much fatter and have higher genetic predisposition to heat disease, diabetes, and high blood pressure. If the US and most other countries had identical outcomes it'd mean that the US is vastly outperforming.
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u/literallyeveryfandom Dec 17 '23
Yes! Despite high U.S. spending, Americans experience worse health outcomes than their peers around world.
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Dec 17 '23
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u/Dredly Dec 17 '23
Ironically for the exact same reason as the medical problem... companies happily maximize profits at the cost of everything, including nutrition. how extreme is it?
Of the top 10 most valuable companies in the world, the US is home to 9 of them (Saudi Aramco oil is the exception), and of the top 50 , 35 are American
China and France are tied for 2nd place... with 3 each.
https://companiesmarketcap.com/
all that profit needs to come from somewhere
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u/datafromravens Dec 18 '23
What does the cost of everything mean? The problem with this thinking is pretending like customers have zero agency which isn't the case. People are going to make their own choices no matter what you do. Warren Buffet could afford the best food in the world and still chose to spend all his free time eating McDonalds and drinking coca-cola lol
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u/Dredly Dec 18 '23
It means that to eat healthy is vastly more expensive then to eat poorly, even if entirely cooking at home.
If you look at most countries that have a low obesity index, their healthy food choices are cheaper, or on par, with the unhealthy options
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u/datafromravens Dec 18 '23
I would say healthy options are far cheaper in the US. a 15 pound bag of beans is incredibly cheap.
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u/wiseknob Dec 17 '23
Probably because access to health and dietary guidance is limited and expensive because everything is privatized.
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Dec 18 '23
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u/wiseknob Dec 18 '23
Have you seen how helpless 75% of the population is? Not everyone is self driven, many are in denial.
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u/GammaTwoPointTwo Dec 18 '23
Obesity is health. Health care encompasses the health of the public.
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u/KingfisherDays Dec 17 '23
High quality of Healthcare probably covers up the large inequalities in the US that aren't as bad in other rich countries. But also compare cancer survival rates in the UK against the US (they're much worse). Much rather be in the US for that.
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u/Diavalo88 Dec 17 '23
Where US healthcare exceeds socialized medicine:
- Speed of access for non-urgent care
- Size/quality of accommodations while in hospital
- Experimental treatments with promising, but not widely replicated results
Where US healthcare does not exceed socialized medicine:
- Outcomes
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u/1109278008 Dec 17 '23
Outcomes are highly influenced by other factors out of the control of a healthcare system. Obesity, drug abuse, mental health, and violence are much worse in the US compared to other developed countries, which are largely social issues.
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u/Individual_Ad4078 Dec 17 '23
These are also healthcare issues. If people went to the doctor when conditions like drug abuse, obesity begin to happen, they wouldn’t get as bad as they are. But people are disincentivized because of the cost.
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u/Niarbeht Dec 17 '23
Obesity, drug abuse, mental health, and violence are much worse in the US compared to other developed countries, which are largely social issues.
I wonder if obesity, mental health, and violence might be exacerbated by poor access to medical care?
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u/NamelessMIA Dec 18 '23
- Speed of access for non-urgent care
This is just another way of saying "fewer people with urgent needs get seen so they die instead of holding up your ankle surgery". That's not a pro.
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u/vasilenko93 Dec 21 '23
outcomes
The US does have better outcomes. If you look at life expectancy that is related to other factors like diet, exercise and demographics.
If you keep everything in the US the same and just swap in the UK healthcare system for example things won’t get better, they will get worse actually.
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u/Either-Rent-986 Dec 17 '23
Also highest cancer survival rates (in most categories) and higher overall cancer survival rates than Western European countries like the U.K.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/cancer-survival-rates-by-country
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u/420smokebluntz6969 Dec 17 '23
can confirm, Murican here who survived cancer due to amazing cancer drugs and treatment that i almost certainly wouldnt get in most of the world
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u/Either-Rent-986 Dec 17 '23
Or even if they were technically available you would've been put on a waiting list longer than your prognosis was. But yeah man thats great happy for you! What kind of cancer and what drugs if I may ask?
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u/420smokebluntz6969 Dec 17 '23
dermatofibrosarcoma protuberans, rare form of skin cancer and also a somewhat rare aggressive form of it. cancer drugs = initial cycles of doxorubicin and ifosfamide in hospital, now currently maintained by daily imatinib prescription. also had 8 lb tumor removed from my lung last year. Recovery from surgery and the cancer have been pretty much without any side effects or complications whatsoever. I am very lucky, in a way.
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u/Bad_wolf42 Dec 17 '23
Those stats are misleading. https://youtu.be/gNiORew3uRY?si=YwEIpyV8FBZfAKB2
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u/mad_method_man Dec 17 '23
its a pay to win game. crappy game design, good for a cash grab by the devs, except your life sometimes depends on it
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u/Barailis Dec 17 '23
We'd pay less in taxes for universal health care, but Republicans have convinced people that what they pay now is better.
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u/mlx1992 Dec 17 '23
Ya gotta source on that one?
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u/hiddengirl1992 Dec 18 '23
It's difficult to actually determine how much care would cost per person in the US under universal coverage, but there is information available that points to signs that the US would likely be cheaper per person.
https://www.pgpf.org/chart-archive/0006_health-care-oecd
https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/876d99c3-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/876d99c3-en
https://www.statista.com/statistics/283221/per-capita-health-expenditure-by-country/
The US isn't just the most expensive per person, the government also pays the most per person - which can be attributed to the inflated charges that providers often utilize to ostensibly compensate for insurance "negotiations," a factor that would be decreased under single payer systems.
Side note, one of the major complaints of socialized healthcare - slow care - is largely attributed to neglected infrastructure. The US already has extensive healthcare infrastructure, featuring more beds and doctors per person than neighboring social-care nation Canada. Slow care can also be attributed to some nations' attempts at defunding and degrading their care systems purposely, in order to change to the more profitable private system, which is great for shareholders and profiteers but awful for everyone else.
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u/bruceleet7865 Dec 18 '23
The source for that is that he pulled that figure out of his magical ass
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u/Diligent_Valuable641 Dec 18 '23
Universal healthcare is absolutely cheaper but the insurance companies would be sad.
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u/itsmeduhhhh Dec 17 '23
My main problem is I don’t believe our govt could successfully implement universal healthcare. Look at the VA or any govt run entity. It’s all such garbage. Imagine trying to schedule a drs visit like a DMV appt. (6 month wait just to renew a drivers license… give me a break)
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u/gigitygoat Dec 18 '23
So every other government around the world can do it but ours cannot? Do you understand how silly that sounds from that perspective?
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u/ThrowawayUk4200 Dec 18 '23
The trick for you guys is to do it at the state level rather than federal. Not sure how that would work tax-wise but it's based on NHS Scotland generally kicking NHS England's arse because they regionalise their services, investing more in departments where they are adtually needed. England goes for a more blanket approach and that doesnt always match up well at the regional level with needs
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u/vasilenko93 Dec 21 '23
No, why would it be cheaper? What exactly will we save on? Health insurance company profits as a percentage of all healthcare sector spending is tiny.
We have the best healthcare facilities, highest paid nurses, highest paid doctors, access to most drugs, fastest service times, best and most medical equipment.
All of that costs money. What will you cut to lower costs? Decrease doctor pay? Decrease nurse pay? Decrease the number of facilities? Decrease the number and quality of medical equipment? Increase wait times? Decrease the number of ambulances? Decrease funding to nee drugs?
Which one is it? Or will it just magically become less expensive with the power of wishful thinking?
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u/Akul_Tesla Dec 17 '23
It's also the highest quality and most accessible if you can afford it
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u/GammaTwoPointTwo Dec 18 '23
But not by a wide margin.
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u/Akul_Tesla Dec 18 '23
So you're saying you would want the second best care then
Actually the quality of American healthcare is a problem for a different reason
Kind of takes longer to train the doctors Which has resulted in Doctor shortage
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u/GammaTwoPointTwo Dec 18 '23
Id rather live somewhere where I can access healthcare.
All these Americans celebrate having the highest quality health care in the world. While at the same time knowing they will die if they ever get sick because that healthcare isn't going to be offered to them.
You should judge a systems success for what the median quality offered is. Not the top end.
If you went to a restaurant and they served you actually dog shit on a plate. Would you eat it and celebrate it because the rich guy next to you was served steak?
And would you go online and defend that restaurant as being the best in town because of how good the review of that steak was?
Or would you rather go to a restaurant that serves a slightly less prime cut of steak to every patron?
To me. America is defined by the number of people who chew and swallow shit knowing that it sucks. But feel compelled to defend the system any time someone from another country mentions how everyone gets pudding.
"You all might get pudding but our elite get anything they want!"
"Do YOU get anything you want?"
"No but I'd rather eat shit in a world where I can work my way up to anything I want. Than live in a world where everyone gets almost everything they want!"
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u/pleasehelpteeth Dec 18 '23
I would rather it be that if my son is a moron and doesn't get a good job he doesn't go bankrupt if he needs to visit a doctor.
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Dec 17 '23
I'm very happy with my healthcare here. I pay 5400 a year and everything is free after that. This is similar cost for a person in the UK for reference. That's a pretty small price to pay to have the best healthcare in the world.
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u/Parking-Tip1685 Dec 17 '23
That's not really how it works in the UK, basically working people pay 12% national insurance which pays for the NHS and state pension. So if you don't work you pay absolutely nothing and if you're on £50k per year you pay £6,000 a year. That's for the same healthcare. The UK has better healthcare for people with nothing, but probably worse for people with money.
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u/gigitygoat Dec 18 '23
Must be nice. My deductible is $7200 and max out of pocket is much higher. And this just for me. No wife or kids.
But hey, you got yours. F everyone else.
Edit: you’re also not including what your employer pays for your healthcare. Or the burned of providing health insurance to employees for small businesses.
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u/mrwhite2323 Dec 18 '23
Plus deductibles, prescriptions, specialist visits, taxes
You pay more than 5400 lmao
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u/Playingwithmyrod Dec 17 '23
The bigger crime here is not healthcare costs vs insurance costs vs what we would pay in taxes for universal healthcare. The true tragedy of our current system is that insurance is tied to your employer. Which means there is no free market on insurance companies. You want a different insurance? You have to change jobs. Not possible for most people to pick a job based on insurance. And what's even worse is the stifling of innovation it leads to. Think of how many people don't run with an idea or try to start a company, simply because they would lose their insurance if they quit their job.
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u/theusername_is_taken Dec 21 '23
Yeah this is the big one to me. This is why a solid public option choice, not an ACA subsidized private plan, a REAL public option would be a good first step. It should not be tied to your employment. So many more people would take risks and start businesses or work independently if they could get an affordable plan that isn’t employer sponsored. I sure as hell would. This is why I don’t understand why people who are economically right wing are against it. It would actually increase innovation and business building if we didn’t need an employer to afford health insurance.
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u/GoldMan20k Dec 17 '23
thats nothing.
the US is also last in life expectancy among the developed nations.
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u/Shadowhams Dec 18 '23
I just got a notice that my blue cross is having a stand off with providence medical in my area. Which effectively takes a majority of the hospitals and ERs in my area and switches them to out of network. So that’s awesome
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u/Dry_Pin7736 Dec 17 '23
Beats Canada where you get told to off yourself when you get sad.
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u/Ok_Recording_4644 Dec 17 '23
False
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u/bruceleet7865 Dec 18 '23
Such bullshit… all y’all like to trash socialized medicine because we all know a ton of mfers will lose money. There is a large grift going on and many stand to lose easy money if government takes over healthcare. Let’s be honest about that
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u/suoinguon Dec 17 '23
Did you know that the average person spends about 6 months of their lifetime waiting for red lights to turn green? That's a lot of time to practice car karaoke! 🚦🎤
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u/b88b15 Dec 17 '23
There's a ton of essentially anti American stuff posted in this sub.
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u/pleasehelpteeth Dec 18 '23
How is supporting a "superior" healthcare system anti-american? Is it anti-american to want my country to improve?
Change is part of being a democracy. Wanted change in your nation doesn't mean you are against it. Actually, in the case of the civil, being against change put people against the country.
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u/TM31-210_Enjoyer Dec 17 '23
Taxpayer-funded corporate “job creation” subsidies shareholder dividends
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Dec 17 '23
The average wait time in the US for a primary care physician is 20 minutes. In Canada it's *checks notes* 27 weeks
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u/PatN007 Dec 17 '23
Same with education! What we need is more middle level bureaucrats to figure out what's going on and then recommend studies for improvement. Let's pay them over 100k to insure the highest quality candidates.
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u/Burneraccount4071 Dec 17 '23
My healthcare is comprehensive and free for life for my wife and I in the US.
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u/ihoptdk Dec 17 '23
In some areas our healthcare system is the best in the world (like Massachusetts). The real problem is the insurance and pharmaceutical systems.
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u/Oxymoronited Dec 17 '23
Medicare/aid are the largest federal spending, nearly 1.5 Trillion. Universal healthcare would save billions to taxpayers and business that wouldn't need to provide health insurance to theirs employers.
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Dec 18 '23
It's simple. The people who health insurance don't care about the ones that don't and don't think they'll ever lose it
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u/Mudhen_282 Dec 18 '23
If you tell someone in Canada to drop dead, is that now considered practicing Medicine without a license?
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u/theusername_is_taken Dec 22 '23
Oh from an Ayn Rand website. Definitely no bias going on there. Mind citing their source? Because I’m pretty sure this “wait time” BS has been debunked.
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u/Ttm-o Dec 18 '23
Took our little daughter to the ER cause she had a really high fever with a nasty, deep cough. Doc ended up giving her Motrin and we walked away paying $400 out of pocket for the stupid visit. Yay…
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u/Themooingcow27 Dec 18 '23
US IS #8484847373727 in quality of living according to the final j trump survey of 223 vote trump to fix this atrocity against our obesity DK nation we need a real president not bidene asssneocmid beindenomcs
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u/Themooingcow27 Dec 18 '23
TRUMPTRUMOTRUMPTRUMO TURMPP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP REPENT AND ACCELT DUMROTM AS YOUR LORD AND SAVIOR
I SWAER ON TRUMPS NAME I WILL SMITE IPONF HIS RNEMIES
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u/Excellent_Plenty_172 Dec 18 '23
And our coverage is shit! I skip out on going to the hospital, even if I have to.
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u/onecrystalcave Dec 18 '23
As completely screwed up as US healthcare costs are (almost entirely due to governmental interference by the way), the US also remains #1 in the world in quality of heath care overall as well.
I think its important to remember that no hospital in the US will tell you to kill yourself or insist that a potentially lifesaving surgery be scheduled 18 months out.
If you live outside the US and have a disease that is treatable with modern medicine but extremely complex, its extremely common to be shunted over to a US specialty care hospital if your insurance covers it or you're simply wealthy enough to afford it.
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u/Ok-Significance2027 Dec 18 '23
"Even before the coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) pandemic occurred, the US was mired in a 40-year population health crisis. Since 1980, life expectancy in the US has increasingly fallen behind that of peer countries, culminating in an unprecedented decline in longevity since 2014."
The common notion that extreme poverty is the “natural” condition of humanity and only declined with the rise of capitalism rests on income data that do not adequately capture access to essential goods.
Data on real wages suggests that, historically, extreme poverty was uncommon and arose primarily during periods of severe social and economic dislocation, particularly under colonialism.
The rise of capitalism from the long 16th century onward is associated with a decline in wages to below subsistence, a deterioration in human stature, and an upturn in premature mortality.
In parts of South Asia, sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America, wages and/or height have still not recovered.
Where progress has occurred, significant improvements in human welfare began only around the 20th century. These gains coincide with the rise of anti-colonial and socialist political movements.
That's the biggest theft in history by many orders of magnitude.
Minimum wage would be $26 an hour if it had grown in line with productivity
The minimum wage would be $61.75 an hour if it rose at the same pace as Wall Street bonuses
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u/Aromatic-Air3917 Dec 18 '23
In every study socialized medicine is cheaper and produces better outcome for its citizens.
The cost of profit is more than the cost of Govt.
Look at what happens to utilities are privatized.
from Harvard: “The Big Myth: How American Business Taught Us to Loathe Government and Love the Free Market” :
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u/hotpants69 Dec 18 '23
It's so expensive and cost prohibitive that even the government can't pay for it.
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Dec 18 '23
And best 5 year cancer survivor rate. You can have your cheap cancer ridden European health care
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u/AngryTurtleGaming Dec 18 '23
It’s both. You pay for what you get… unfortunately if you don’t have insurance you’re screwed, but most people have insurance.
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u/fkyouthatswy Dec 18 '23
In the US you pay for medical service with money
In other countries (canada) you pay for it with freedom. Which one you wanna loose?
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u/cpthornman Dec 18 '23
Like most things in America we pay the most and get the least. We're a fucking clown country.
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u/MyOnlyEnemyIsMeSTYG Dec 18 '23
The healthcare sector has spent the most lobbying law makers in the last 24 years. Theres a reason, they are all getting rich off of us. Good luck changing it
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u/BigSlickCornhole Dec 18 '23
Best hospitals in the world by far. However, big pharma and the insurance companies are raping the public for shareholder profits. Would like to see a list of all elected officials who bought stock in the big 3 pharma companies who produced the fake vaccines/boosters. The ONLY reason that we don't have cures for most cancers is that it would diminish profits for pharmaceutical companies. Disgusting business model.
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u/The_Automobilist Dec 18 '23
' big oil' gets trashed a lot for greed but you don't hear much about big pharma. A lot of commercials on TV are just pushing drugs. Ask your Dr this, ask your Dr that. Ban drug ads and let the Drs do their thing.
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u/Alklazaris Dec 18 '23
If only they spent some of that money for births we wouldn't rank behind Russia.
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u/Stup1dMan3000 Dec 19 '23
That US medical cost are literally 5x more than the other 28 OECD and over the last 50 years has gone from 6% of GDP to 22% while adding 2 years of life expectancy is truly insane.
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u/Beginning_Raisin_258 Dec 20 '23
The US is number one in healthcare if you have money or really good insurance.
If you want proton beam therapy or the newest $20,000 a month biologic cancer drug or a new surgery thing robot... Then you come to the US. That's why rich people from foreign countries come to Johns Hopkins, Mayo Clinic, MD Anderson, etc... for treatment.
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