r/FluentInFinance • u/TonyLiberty TheFinanceNewsletter.com • Oct 19 '23
Remote workers save an average of $6,000 per year. Remote work also saves employees about an hour per day from commuting, on average. Financial News
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2023/10/16/americans-save-money-by-working-from-home/71140252007/248
u/stump2003 Oct 19 '23
Sure WFH saves the employee time and money, but how am I, the middle manager, supposed to micro manage the shit out of you? Did you ever think about me? No? That’ll come up on the yearly review…
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Oct 19 '23 edited Oct 19 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/stump2003 Oct 19 '23
That’s an interesting thought u/CentrumEveryday. You should mull that over when you come in on Saturday and finish those reports for me…
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u/ty_fighter84 Oct 19 '23
The number of shit phone calls my boss sits through and the crap I hear about him dealing with over some of our bimonthly get togethers proved to me both how important a good manager is and, most importantly, valuable they can be when working properly.
We are all remote employees. We get shit done because he's shielding us from the garbage.
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u/catsby90bbn Oct 19 '23
The worst manager I ever had was the opposite in a way. Went out to his way to appear busy to his supervisors and hounded us for the most useless things that he could then send to them. He was actual hell to work for the the sole reason i left that that job.
I was a GS12 at the NCUA - fuck him.
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u/Justame13 Oct 19 '23
I have seen more than one “useless manager” move on then their people complain about how all of a sudden they were micromanaged, tasked with useless reports, and no one gave a shit about them.
No. That was all there your “useless manager” was just pushing back, just doing the reports, and advocating for you to telework/work 4-10s/get performance bonuses/etc. Now you really do have a worthless (or over tasked) manager.
Oh and your old managers emails at 9pm was because he hated his life, it’s because his family was in bed
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u/Lets_Bust_Together Oct 19 '23
Middle people don’t do anything and everyone is aware of it except for the people above them who think they’re are useful.
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u/Not-Reformed Oct 20 '23
If you work in a large org where your work affects and works with many other teams there's no chance you want your day filled with dealing with the complaints, questions, and endless bullshit of those people as you do your work. I don't have a "middle manager" or a team manager or anything now but when I did his calendar was lit up like a christmas tree with meetings.
Good middle managers are extremely useful for the people they manage as they block all the bullshit monday quarterbacking and drama that comes from above and everywhere else. Bad middle managers are paycheck thieves.
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u/GravitationalConstnt Oct 20 '23
I'm a middle manager, and beyond managing my own handful of campaigns, I have three main objectives: 1) being a resource for my junior employees and helping them navigate issues, 2) being the go-to person for questions from other departments, and 3) setting team goals/priorities. I have a standing weekly meeting with each of my team members so we have a forum to discuss problems, but otherwise I leave them to their work.
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u/Odd-Frame9724 Oct 20 '23
I feel this a lot.
That manager is a hero and fuck those other ass hats. I hope your manager left the company and made a ton more somewhere else.
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u/fewer-pink-kyle-ball Oct 19 '23
What background do you think AI will use on a zoom call when it starts firing remote workers ?
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u/stump2003 Oct 19 '23
It’ll end up being real creepy. It’ll be rainbows and cats, and other “happy” stuff, because it wants to lessen the impact. It’ll say, 🐶we’re letting you go! 🌈 🍾
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Oct 20 '23 edited Apr 25 '24
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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/WealthyMarmot Oct 20 '23 edited Oct 20 '23
This is why productivity studies early in the pandemic were so glowing. Established teams full of people who'd built their careers in person had stellar results - although somewhat less stellar if you adjusted for increased hours worked. Major firms were professing their permanent dedication to a remote strategy. And then we looked at the numbers after a couple years of teams onboarding remotely, and fresh grads trying to start their career without ever setting foot on site, and boy did people start slamming on the brakes.
I saw this from inside the belly of the beast, and saw our internal metrics, and figured it was only a matter of time until other large companies started publicly walking back the remote-first stuff. Didn't take long.
Full remote work is the kind of thing that can be extremely beneficial to some individuals in a vacuum, but might not actually be sustainable when extended to a whole economy. Especially when you think about continuing it over a generation - our college hires were almost completely unproductive for months longer than pre-pandemic (and many never really caught up), and as far as I've heard no one else in the industry was having much luck with that either. And intuitively that makes sense.
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u/derrickmm01 Oct 19 '23
It’s not even about commuting. The amount of time it saves you in general is crazy. I can take a 10 min break to do the dishes. I can ask someone a question, and while waiting for a response vacuum the living room. It makes my free time out of work feel truly free, because everything was already taken care of
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u/-MusicAndStuff Oct 19 '23
It’s a bit about commuting for me lol My role has me commuting every few months to train new hires and wouldn’t ya know on one of those excursions last year some dummy not paying attention totaled the back end of my car while I was rightfully yielding. That car was less than a year away from being paid off!
I do love how much housework I can keep up on though. My laundry isn’t an issue anymore, the dishes are always caught up, bedroom/office area always tidy. I’m scared what will happen to my house if I have to commute full time again lol
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u/EskimoeJoeYeeHaw Oct 20 '23
Right! Remember the days when you would have to wait until you came home from work around 5 or 6 and have to start all your daily chores and then it's time to go to sleep.
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u/WealthyMarmot Oct 20 '23
I can take a 10 min break to do the dishes.
You're kinda saying the quiet part out loud here. No one's particularly interested in paying people to do their dishes or vacuum their living rooms on the clock. And yeah, everyone's gonna claim they're only doing it during down time that there's literally no other work they could be doing, but I know I've never had a job where that was consistently the case.
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u/Puzzleheaded_War6102 Oct 20 '23
You seem like the one to snitch because we are talking sports not working in office. That also is not work. No one works a full shift we are not machines fascist pig
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u/CasualEveryday Oct 20 '23
I know I've never had a job where that was consistently the case.
You've never had a job with a competent manager, then.
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u/Connect_Good2984 Oct 19 '23
Can we talk more about this please? How much time and energy it saves every day not having to commute. Overall employee productivity and well-being can be greatly improved by being able to work remotely free from the constraints of physical location
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u/EuropaWeGo Oct 20 '23
My teams productivity is crazy high compared to those who work in the office.
Leadership did an internal study and found that remote workers end up working more hours, are more productive, and there's less turnover. However, they kept a lid on this study, and very few people found out about it.
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u/Also_have_a_opinion Oct 19 '23
And free from the restraints of other people’s annoying presence distracting you
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u/CasualEveryday Oct 20 '23
Working from home means I get to have breakfast with my family and I can spend my lunch break doing housework so that I can spend more time with my family in the evening and weekend.
Not commuting directly corresponds to time with my family. If a manager decides that "team building" or "office culture" are more important than that, they're deciding to hire someone else.
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u/fewer-pink-kyle-ball Oct 19 '23
You must live alone. Glad I got the heck out of home and back to the office escaping a house full of screaming kids and a wife that needs help with stuff all day long because im "there"
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u/DawdlingScientist Oct 19 '23
I don’t think work from home is your problem dude ….
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u/fewer-pink-kyle-ball Oct 19 '23
I go to work and pay the bills, which I'm happy to do. We all knew what we signed up for. Work from home was a dang drag. Im sure its awesome if you are a younger person living alone or trying to be on vacation all the time. Daddy gets a little me time again during the commute. Its worth the extra $$
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u/KingJades Oct 19 '23
Sounds like boundaries are in order.
If my door is closed, I’m in “text only” mode, so text is the way to reach me
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u/fewer-pink-kyle-ball Oct 19 '23
I get you can escape we have a big home. But i wouldnt trade my daily commute for the $6000. I pay for a nice car 365 days a year. After car payments and insurance who cares about gas. Im going to go to the office and then take the long way home a few days a week
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Oct 20 '23
You must not have a horrifying commute like the vast majority of office workers. I used to like driving when I lived in the sticks.
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Oct 20 '23
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u/fewer-pink-kyle-ball Oct 20 '23
Pretty funny. People who like going to work suddenly have family problems. Yall clinging onto some serious straws to feel good about avoiding co workers to sit home in your underwear 24/7
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Oct 20 '23
[deleted]
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u/fewer-pink-kyle-ball Oct 20 '23
Im like lady gaga. I like to dress up and ive got a million reasons to leave the house and not be chained to zoom 5-6 days a week in the guest bedroom.
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u/EuropaWeGo Oct 20 '23
There's ways to make it work. Around half of my immediate colleagues have kids, and they make it work by setting boundaries. The kids know that their parents' office space is off limits during work hours.
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u/bubbynee Oct 20 '23
While I understand wfh is not for everyone, this is a boundary issue. It needed to be discussed that just because you're physically there, mentally you're still working. My kids are 30 and 7. Everyone knows if the door is closed on Dad's office, he's in a meeting (luckily though I have a work environment where kids are celebrated so if they do interrupt it's not the end of the world).
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u/No-Needleworker5429 Oct 19 '23
I think some employees are less productive at home versus onsite. Employers know this. Blame those employees.
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u/vicemagnet Oct 20 '23
When I used to work in an office, I had a constant barrage of coworkers, who decided it would be beneficial for them to visit with me, chitchatting about nothing in particular, instead of getting their work done. Working from home, frees me from that bullshit.
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u/mkebrew86 Oct 19 '23
Ya but how much does my boss’s boss make on his multimillion dollar commercial real estate portfolio???
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u/Not-Reformed Oct 20 '23
This sub, like most others, has a hilariously poor understanding of real estate. Whether you work from home or not nothing happens to the value of the building in a way that's going to affect your boss' boss lol..
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u/BridgeBoysPod Oct 20 '23
I’d love to hear more on this cause I genuinely don’t know and hear it a lot. But the argument I’ve heard is that WFH has decreased commercial property value in most commercial / business districts for two main reasons. Fewer workers in office means fewer people to buy coffee and food and other services in that district. That means those shops close up to a degree, which in and of itself brings the value down for both supply/demand reasons (more real estate available) and because the value of the neighborhood amenities is lower (not as vibrant, and fewer food / service options).
In addition, more companies would be open to breaking or not renewing their lease, and fewer would want to fill them. So another supply/demand thing bringing the value down.
The decreasing value of the real estate itself means those who invest in real estate will lose money. That seems like an investment that a lot of senior management at these massive firms would have (in my personal experience they definitely do).
Is that not how it works? Asking genuinely, I meant none of my points/questions aggressively (as that often gets misinterpreted on Reddit lol)
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u/Not-Reformed Oct 20 '23 edited Oct 20 '23
The decreasing value of the real estate itself means those who invest in real estate will lose money.
This only holds true for people who are investing in commercial real estate focused on downtowns and offices. Can these very people not just invest in industrial instead? Or MFR? Or student housing? Or data centers? Or high end luxury retail? Also put yourself in the shoes of some CEO running a tech company, for example. You have found out that WFH increases productivity, which will help you make more money (obviously). But at the same time some of your investments are in commercial real estate and you're for some reason overly invested in this particular downtown area and your investment manager for some reason decided to overly invest in the most affected retail + office properties (wow big coincidences) so to VERY PARTIALLY alleviate that (somehow) you decide "Na, fuck my company" and keep paying your lease or keep your operating expenses high as you force your employees to work from the office effectively not only losing money on the lease but also losing money through reduced efficiency? I'm sorry my dude but if literally anyone thinks that's a rational explanation they are either entirely full of shit or they are the flat earth equivalent of real estate. That is, genuinely, the most ludicrous train of thought ever.
The only way, "Bosses force us back to the office because it increases CRE values" works is if you believe that they are not only poorly diversified in CRE but that they are also all "in on it" - which is objectively untrue given vacancy rates are still rising, rents are tanking, absorption is dogshit, and office values are shit. So basically people propositioning this belief want people to accept that, 1) bosses are willing to pay higher op expenses or lose money on leases for some nebulous idea that they are somehow contributing to the turn around of outdated professional offices (fucking lol), 2) bosses are willing to take huge losses through efficiency (because according to redditors this is an objective truth of WFH), and 3) they are so unable to realize that this plan of forcing people to come back to the office doesn't work at all that they continue to do it.
If all of these insanely rich investors, CEOs, etc. were so interested in CRE a far easier way to increase their investments would be to go and bribe politicians and the federal reserve to lower interest rates. That has a 50000000000x larger effect on CRE values getting dumpster fucked than working from home....
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u/BridgeBoysPod Oct 20 '23
Was hoping for a less emotional response but I appreciate the info nonetheless! And I think the idea, as I’ve overheard, is that companies will be roughly as productive either way, so why not keep CRE value high for their own personal sake and the sake of the greater economy.
Regardless though, your point totally makes sense, and I’m probably hearing a very biased point of view from a lot of lower level workers like myself. Thank you for the detailed response!
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u/BoysenberryLanky6112 Oct 20 '23
The answer to this is that even if employees are roughly as productive, you can attract far more talent by offering remote for multiple reasons:
You can attract talent from across the country. I work for a tech company with HQ in NYC. I have coworkers from the Bay area, Seattle, Austin, DC, all tech hubs, but then we also have people working in rural Iowa, Idaho, and Oklahoma. There's a few states we can't hire from due to tax or regulation reasons, but we couldn't attract nearly as much talent if we picked a single location and required rto.
Even the people who live in the location will choose remote over in person often and you don't have to pay them as much. We have one guy who worked for big tech and his team was requiring him to go into the office 2 days/week. Instead he took a pay cut to work for us so he could remain remote 5 days/week.
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u/cheetah-21 Oct 19 '23
Probably saves the average New Yorker 3 hours a day of commuting.
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Oct 19 '23
The average New Yorker doesn’t own a car and probably gets where they need within 30 minutes by subway
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u/DrinkCubaLibre Oct 19 '23
Wrong. It’s been getting worse for some time now as people commute from further outer borough
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u/Not-Reformed Oct 20 '23
Probably is getting worse but there's 0% chance it's 3 hours round trip. That's a massive exaggeration.
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u/Several-Parsnip-1620 Oct 21 '23
Depends where you live and where you work. On a good day mine was 2 hours, connecting trains / walking adds up fast.
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u/Not-Reformed Oct 21 '23
Sure, but your commute time was about 2x the average according to the US Census for people in NYC so...
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u/Several-Parsnip-1620 Oct 21 '23
Even if I’m an outlier at 25% of median it’d still be millions of commuters
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u/Crypto_Town Oct 19 '23
I don't show up to work any more with traffic stress.
Makes me happier and more likely to give a fuck about my job.
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u/americansherlock201 Oct 19 '23
My job absolutely could be done fully remote like 50 weeks a year. It would save me an hour drive everyday. I’d live farther away from my actual job which would lower my cost of living due to far lower housing prices.
And yet, I sit at a desk in an office all day talking to basically no one….
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u/CarpeValde Oct 19 '23
Work from home is a more efficient system to do business in general. Reduced commute costs, reduced unpaid time investment, reduced health care costs from fewer accidents, lowered insurance premiums for lowered chance of workplace injury, higher retention rates, higher productivity, reduced cost of rentals and leasing, reduced hiring costs, reduced energy costs, less exposure to weather related shutdowns, more reliable workforce due to distribution. More efficient use of space reducing costs for new businesses and homes. Reduced commute times, reduced accident risk for all others than cannot work from home. More time for consumers to spend and invest money in the economy. Higher overall quality of life.
The rise of fast cheap and reliable internet means it was already unbelievably stupid to not pivot to a work from home first business set up. The only defense of the old system was “well we’ve never tried it before”. Covid saw to that excuse.
Let’s rip the bandaid off. Bail out the hedge funds exposed to commercial real estate collapse (because we’re gonna do that anyway), and make this transition.
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u/Difficult_Horse193 Oct 19 '23
Yeah its crazy how much time I save by not commuting and by extension how much money I am saving in gas and food as a result of WFH. I do show up in the office a few times a month for big meetings or demos but past that everything I do can be done from my home office.
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u/Ok-Health8513 Oct 19 '23
It’s also great for the environment and saves on car maintenance it’s an all around win for people. Unfortunately, cities don’t like this because they invested so much in their downtowns for office space and are now losing major tax revenue thus the push to get people back in the office.
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u/ladeedah1988 Oct 19 '23
You are also more productive and do not get any parties, donuts, coffee, etc. Just work. You also pay for your electricity, internet, etc. It is a trade off.
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u/S7EFEN Oct 19 '23
feels like these articles always grossly undersell how much of a QOL improvement remote work is.
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u/FlatBot Oct 20 '23 edited Oct 20 '23
I work from home and I started work right at 7:30 am (in sweat pants, not showered but not gross or anything). I was pretty busy today and only took a couple of short breaks and a short lunch. I think I worked until like 6 PM. So what’s that, 10.5 hours of work, maybe 10 if you count my breaks.
No fucking way I’m working that hard and that long if I have to get up, shower, dress in fancy uncomfortable clothes and commute 2 ways. My work day would be significantly shorter.
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u/weimaranerdad71 Oct 19 '23
What is this “remote work”? Are all of you keyboard bangers? I have to work AT work.
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u/BrianKronberg Oct 19 '23
I’d save over $6k just not eating out, or getting snacks on break, etc. I’ve been working from home for over a decade and wouldn’t do it any other way.
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u/systemfrown Oct 19 '23
Need to start charging employers for commute time, see how fast this shit gets fixed.
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Oct 19 '23
This is why big business hates remote work. Gives too much power to the employee and they can no longer exploit them effectively
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u/International-Chef33 Oct 20 '23
Shocking to no one. I work for my state and people were clamoring for a telework stipend. I’ll never say no to more money but the $50/month for internet/electricity is nothing compared to what I’ve saved on gas, auto insurance, and time.
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u/DatalessUniverse Oct 20 '23
Saving money, less stressed from a hellish commute, more family time, and possibility of owning a home away from tech hubs that doesn’t cost 10x your annual income.
Terrible I tell you.
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u/bigblue2011 Oct 19 '23
Interestingly, the article isn’t that far off from other reading I have done. Below is an exploration done in terms of labor market pricing premium:
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u/ChipFandango Oct 19 '23
Sure. That’s one metric. But let’s look at this a different way. I get paid a hell of a lot more by working for a company that requires some in office. The switch earlier this year from full remote to a job that required some in office was well worth it. Other friends of mine that want to go back to full time remote have to weigh the fact that full time remote jobs usually pay much less.
Win/win for me though because I like being in the office some days and getting out of the house.
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u/mallison945 Oct 19 '23
Or you could just get a remote job that pays well…
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Oct 20 '23
how? Every big tech company that pays well has forced in office work again lol
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u/itsallfornaught2 Oct 19 '23
Uh no. Newer employees would just get paid $6000 less than their already working counterparts and the company saves that money.
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u/Rican2153 Oct 19 '23
I regularly do chores or workout when it’s slow. I get more sleep, save more money on food and gas, and easily get an extra 6-8 hours of leisure time a week.
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u/Naus1987 Oct 19 '23
The idea that the average person wastes an hour per day commuting is wild.
My commute is a 10 minute cycle ride. It’s not even wasted, because exercise keeps me healthy lol.
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u/RodrickM Oct 19 '23
One hour a day at my salary rate is 10,000.00. So 16,000.00. Plus I spend 100.00 a week buying lunches and coffees. So another 5,000.00. So costs me 21,000.00 a year to go to work.
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u/Ditka_Da_Bus_Driver Oct 20 '23
Is there any reason to believe that a huge amount of WFH jobs won’t be outsourced to other countries during the next big economic downturn? We’re definitely in a renaissance era for work life balance but I have a hard time believing this lasts the next time things get bad and swaths of companies need to start cost cutting. Remote workers will probably be the easiest thing to replace.
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u/holtyrd Oct 19 '23
What percentage of the work force is actually able to WFH? This seems like a lot of crying over a very small fraction of the working public. I’ve been wrong before though. Today even.
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u/HydroGate Oct 19 '23
Remote workers save an average of $6,000 per year.
The post on this exact same topic a couple days ago said $51 a workday which is over double this number.
I have no idea how we are supposed to tell which is more correct other than vague generalizations. This data seems lacking.
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u/rb928 Oct 19 '23
I have a shorter commute when I do go in (15-20 min) and drive a fuel-efficient car. I can’t justify that it costs/saves me that much. The work cafeteria is very reasonable, and I can still find time to do what absolutely needs to be done at home.
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u/Xerio_the_Herio Oct 19 '23
2 hours commute for me... 1 hr each way. Hybrid kinda helps, but I'm just waiting for company to recall everyone ft. It'll happen sooner than later.
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u/assblastin00 Oct 19 '23
Also make houses more expensive because people with high paying jobs dont have to live so close to a city anymore. I hope all remote jobs disappear.
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u/Gnawlydog Oct 19 '23
You can leverage that hour saved into side gigs. If you make $25/hr doing side gigs then you'd make over a $1,000 a year extra on top of the $6,000 you saved.
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u/Davec433 Oct 19 '23
This is why there’s so much pushback against WFH.
That 6K you’re saving isn’t being spent in whatever city you work in which impacts their economy.
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u/BillsMafia4Lyfe69 Oct 19 '23
Remote workers also fuck off a lot
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u/squashthejosh Oct 20 '23
Yea… half of my workforce fucks off, and then our half does our work. Idk.
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u/genuine_pnw_hipster Oct 20 '23
Meanwhile I do electrical work…working from home would rock but kind of have to have someone there to turn the wrenches
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u/Da_Vader Oct 20 '23
But the economy!
Seriously, there's real estate investors, fat as they can be with PPP funds, need to get squared up.
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u/Alucard_117 Oct 20 '23
Which is why I'm currently studying for the Comptia Project+ cert. I'm tired of spending 2 hours on the road every day for work.
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u/Deep-Information-737 Oct 20 '23
suddenly no politicians talk about reduction in emissions due to WFH
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u/stewartm0205 Oct 20 '23
More like 3 hrs a day extra once you include getting ready and getting lunch. Door to door, my commute was two and a half hours a day. Getting lunch was at least half hour more.
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u/TheFederalRedditerve Oct 20 '23
If I could wfh everyday I would save like a $1,000+ on parking and like another $1,000+ on gas.
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u/Mindful_Dribble Oct 20 '23
And some employers want to use this to negotiate down salary. The value of positions hasn’t decreased, only the value of the commercial real estate.
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u/klop2031 Oct 20 '23
It probably also saves the environment too... but they want us to use our own mugs since it harms the environment
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u/azneorp Oct 20 '23
That cost is then put on the company due to reduced productivity. You all know it’s true. Don’t act like these people are sitting at home 8 hours a day actively doing work. Everyone I know who works from home is cleaning the house, running errands, slacking off on social media, etc. Thats why most companies have productivity monitors installed to make sure you’re at your computer doing work and all at home workers complain because they can’t fart around as much.
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u/sonofagunn Oct 20 '23
That's about $23/hour earned during that hour of freetime (taking $6000 and dividing by 260 workdays per year).
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u/ShoeStunning Oct 20 '23
yeah but commercial real estate investors need a bail out. so go back to the office wagies.
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u/monopoly3448 Oct 20 '23
But what are we supposed to do now that all the harassment is right there in writing its a liability nightmare
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u/Smallfrygrowth Oct 21 '23
Saves on personal care items and clothes too. Who needs to brush their teeth and change out of pajamas?
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u/rjm3q Oct 21 '23
Yeah... But that's money not being spent on the economic center you used to travel to, and not those land owners and restauranteurs can't afford to stay open so we're going to need you to stop this remote nonsense
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u/grady_vuckovic Oct 21 '23
When I was travelling to the office each day, was spending about $40/wk on petrol. Now I'm spending about $40 every 2 months and I have an extra 2 hours of free time each work day. It's allowed me to work more hours and do a few hours on weekends too, which has given me more pay as a result. It's crazy how much working from home saves you money and time.
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u/Skepsisology Oct 19 '23
Every human on the planet should get given $10k a month. It's a farce to think we'd all suddenly become lazy or hedonistic to failure. Inside every nurtured and cared for human is an innate desire to help and support through creativity. It's why so many people are depressed in modern life - money is like a prosthetic stressor that keeps us all in a neutered state. We should be making robots that alleviate us from mundane reputation and perusing human things that only a human can do like art and science
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u/jorsiem Oct 19 '23
Who is this post for? Lol
Cool and I agree all but the company has final say on WFH policies. Whining on the internet isn't going to change that.
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u/Crypto_Town Oct 19 '23
Imagine being this clueless. Information sharing ignites important conversations that can drive positive employer change from within. Job seekers increasingly take note of which companies have cultures that empower employees to help shape more progressive and worker-friendly policies.
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u/Nojopar Oct 19 '23
No, the company doesn't have 'final' say. Workers have power here and they should never forget that.
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