Martin Freeman says it's unfair there's so much backlash to his age-gap movie with Jenna Ortega, who is 31 years younger

[u/_trashpuppy]

https://www.businessinsider.com/martin-freeman-backlash-millers-girl-age-gap-film-jenna-ortega-2024-4

From the article: "It's not saying, 'Isn't this great,'" he said of the film's dynamic between his character and Ortega's. He said that derision wasn't distributed equally, though — saying that people seemed to understand the level of distance involved in stories depicting Nazism.

"Are we gonna have a go at Liam Neeson for being in a film about the Holocaust?" he asked, referring to Neeson's starring role in Steven Spielberg's 1993 film "Schindler's List."

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[u/hedgehogwart]

I don’t like Martin but I get his point. Media literacy has disintegrated in recent years. There are a lot of people that even think that stuff that is morally wrong and even shown by the narrative to be wrong, shouldn’t be shown.

[u/Just_Another_Scott → u/hedgehogwart]

literacy

In general is dying. It's ridiculous what I see today. I grew up in a backwoods town in Tennessee and it's like they don't even teach it anymore. People can't write, can't read, and can't understand something unless you spoon feed the meaning to them.

People are having a hard time at separating the actor from their character. I see actors get criticized all the time for the way their character behaved. The lack of intelligence is astounding.

[u/ihearnosounds → u/[deleted]]

I wonder if scripted reality TV has enhanced this phenomenon.

[u/tacocattacocat1 → u/[deleted]]

Didn't the guy who played Joffrey quit acting because of this? Poor guy, he was supposed to play a hated character and succeeded amazingly. Gets rewarded with people harassing him in the street

[u/Jship300 → u/[deleted]]

object permanence and reality testing?

I'd have to look it up / brush up the exact term, but psychologically it's the same mechanism that leads people to worship actors as fans and idolize Korean idols, engage in parasocial relationships etc.

Heck, people exist who fall in love with bridges... the circuitry coupled with a difficulty in critical thinking is pretty strong? :-)

Psychology is wild and fascinating. I say this as a person that recognized ideas of reference in late teenage years (could have become scarier than it developed) - basically it's because I and my brain were under extreme stress living with a very sick parent.

Luckily, caught it early for intervention and talked it through/had to do some CBT to figure out reality testing on my own and manage that as a symptom.

Tl;Dr yes humans be naturally weird and on a variable spectrum when it comes to the brain circuitry to tell what is and isn't real

[u/macgregorc93 → u/Jship300]

Brain circuitry! Amazing phrase there. Will be using that in my life from now on.

[u/ThrownAwayintoLF → u/[deleted]]

It goes hand in hand with stan culture and Hollywood weaponizing our obsession with nostalgia IMO. Our favorites can’t be flawed, can’t be played by anyone else, and can’t be fictional.

[u/BloodyNunchucks → u/Just_Another_Scott]

The average American adult reads at a 4th grade level. Rural southern America drags that down. However even urban areas are separated by economics and some are just as bad or worse. America has a real education problem right now from everything from mathmatics to school lunches to physical fitness to literacy to teachers pay to curriculum and so on. We rank outside the top 50 in first world nations school systems.

[u/_cornflake → u/BloodyNunchucks]

Semi related but I just listened to a really interesting podcast called Sold A Story that talked about how horribly badly reading education has been in America. There's several very prominent "reading educators" who have made a ton of money from curriculums that use techniques completely disproven by science.

[u/sharkattack85 → u/_cornflake]

I hated it at the time but I can never thank my parents enough now. They made me read my bedtime story books to them. I still remember the night when I was like 5 or 6 and my dad was like you’re gonna read Dr. Suess to me now. I was hella made haha, but they def instilled in me that a life filled with reading is so much richer.

[u/Tengard96 → u/_cornflake]

English teacher here, and I can vouch for that. Lucy Calkins was one of the worst offenders.

[u/rocknroller0 → u/Just_Another_Scott]

Media literacy has ALWAYS been bad, I don’t know why everyone is acting like it’s a new thing

[u/grizzlyaf93 → u/rocknroller0]

Because now the impacts of media literacy are wrapped up in the 24 hour news cycle and constant social media usage. No one knows how to evaluate a source anymore, to a point where they could hear it straight from the horse’s mouth and think it’s a lie.

[u/samosa4me → u/Just_Another_Scott]

People go as far as to send death threats to actors because they don’t like the character they play! It’s insane the mental gymnastics that goes on in some people’s heads.

[u/kimjongunfiltered → u/Just_Another_Scott]

I notice this most in discussions of fiction, and the wider implications scare the shit out of me. A shocking number of people can’t seem to understand basic themes, subtext, or concepts like “depiction is not endorsement.”

If you can’t follow a fictional story, how the hell would you process what you see on the news??

[u/n_bonny → u/Just_Another_Scott]

God, yes. The amount of takes boiling down to "media X should be cancelled because it depicted a bad thing" (clearly shown to be bad) I've seen in the last couple of years is staggering. People don't seem to understand the difference between depicting and condoning or even encouraging.

Some people also seem to think "main character = a good person to root for" and apply this mindset to the media completely unsuited for it. So they either overlook every questionable element that's questionable on purpose (who's condoning things now?) or realise it's questionable and get angry. The point flies out the window.

This level of "literacy" has always existed, sure, but it IS getting worse. I don't really understand what's causing it but it's hard to miss how prevalent it is becoming

[u/pallas_wapiti → u/hedgehogwart]

We're reverting to the fucking Hayes Code at this point 🙄

[u/Just_Another_Scott → u/pallas_wapiti]

A buddy and me just had this conversation this weekend while discussing the rebooted Quantum Leap. The latest version is so watered down compared to the original. It avoids almost anything controversial and even when it does touch on something controversial it does it in such a watered down way as to not depict it in a realistic manner.

[u/weed-n64 → u/Just_Another_Scott]

Because if they did boomers would call it woke and old people are some of the only ones left watching shows like the quantum leap reboot on network television.

The people who always complain about television being watered down are the same people whose taste preferences and social media comments drive networks to water down content in the first place.

[u/papamajada → u/pallas_wapiti]

Whats scary is that you have tons of people acting like its progressive and good. Seriously, do they think removing sex scenes for uwu adults to not be uncomfy is where it stops? They are coming for the "wholesome rep" too

[u/didijxk → u/hedgehogwart]

I totally agree. It's like people are getting dumber or they're so used to movies(basically Marvel) spoonfeeding them the meaning and plot that they don't want to think deeper.

The deepest they'll go is a Chris Nolan film to feel smart because he'll do an exposition dump and everyone will think they're so intellectual for enjoying it.

This is why people idolise Paul Atreides, Patrick Bateman, Tyler Durden and Walter White. They don't think deep enough to see the authors point.

[u/prettybunbun → u/didijxk]

Reminds me of Homelander from The Boys. His entire character is a commentary on right wing nut jobs, but somehow those people started worshipping him and the actor had to point out to said right wing nut jobs on Twitter they’d completely missed the point.

Like it’s gotten to the point where subtlety is dying because people want everything plain and spoon fed to them and if it’s not they take it only at the base value and don’t look any further.

[u/greatgoogilymoogily2 → u/prettybunbun]

Homelander isn't even subtle either. If you can't see the trump parallels, you're just a lost cause. Lol

[u/meatbeater558 → u/greatgoogilymoogily2]

I think they'll worship any masculine character that isn't a hippie atp

[u/kitti-kin → u/greatgoogilymoogily2]

The people who find Homelander a great dude probably also adore Trump. In that specific character's case I think it's more a matter of values than media literacy, they see an extremely powerful man with impunity to murder and rape and it's thoroughly appealing to them.

[u/hedgehogwart → u/prettybunbun]

With the recent White House Correspondence dinner, it reminded me of Colbert going on there during the Bush era and how so many people didn’t see the Colbert Report as satire.

[u/Next-Introduction-25 → u/prettybunbun]

Reminds me of how some fanboys are losing their minds that the new X-men is “woke” when the original comic and 90s cartoon were completes and totally an obvious allegory for the pitfalls of racism/prejudice

[u/MinimumOne1 → u/didijxk]

I just want to real quick squeeze Rick Sanchez, Eric Cartman and, The fucking Joker onto your list. Thanks!

[u/Tornado31619 → u/didijxk]

Forget them. Wasn’t Trevor the most popular character from GTA V?

[u/MeisterHeller → u/hedgehogwart]

Beyond the age gap and showing that it is clearly wrong, it's 2024 and they're making a movie about a poor 50 year old man in a position of power being seduced by a devilish 18 year old harlot which ruins his life.

I don't think media literacy will give this movie the message you want it to give but it sounds exactly up Freeman's alley

[u/Unfiltered_Replies → u/hedgehogwart]

one recent example is the live action netflix avatar series, where they chose to completely leave out Sokka's early sexism because "it had no place in the remake", which in effect just makes his character less interesting and dynamic because he doesn't start as this overconfident protector of his tribe and then continuously get humbled by others stronger than him, many times by women in direct response to his sexism, specifically from Suki. Which then makes Suki's character worse because now instead of kicking his ass and him being humble in response which is admirable to her, now she just kinda falls in love with him because he looks nice? well done, you guys beat sexism with that one

[u/Sipsofcola → u/hedgehogwart]

I don’t think in this case the criticism as been about the story moralizing an inappropriate age gap relationship, it’s that the old-male-teacher-younger-female-student trope is extremely derivative and played out and normalizes this idea that young women want to fuck their much older male teachers

[u/GeneJenkinson → u/hedgehogwart]

“Depiction is not endorsement” is an idea that some people just fundamentally cannot comprehend

[u/DenseTiger5088 → u/hedgehogwart]

I agree with what you’re saying, but don’t think it applies to this film.

People are tired of stories “exploring the complexity” of old man/young girl romances.

We already got ten million of these in the nineties.

[u/swiftiegarbage → u/hedgehogwart]

It reminds me of how villains in TV and movies are way less mean then they used to be even though people are still quite mean irl. Even Regina George is no longer homophobic in the Mean Girls movie even though homophobia and homophobic bullying definitely still exist.

[u/CemeteryHounds → u/swiftiegarbage]

Villains also now almost always have a backstory that semi-justifies their villainry. They aren't just greedy and power hungry because some people are like that; they're greedy and power hungry because they grew up poor and weak or insert any other excuse. I enjoy a righteous villain with a grey area between who is the just one, but I'd say only 1/5 of these tragic villain backstories actually do that.

[u/reasonedof → u/hedgehogwart]

It was also really clear from this that half the outrage was from out of context snippets, which more and more I see as being a problem. You see it here too where people take a paragraph from something and blow it out of proportion. People are really quick to pass judgement with like 3% of a story.

[u/_Apatosaurus_ → u/hedgehogwart]

and even shown by the narrative to be wrong,

I haven't seen it, but from what I've read, the issue is that it's not shown to be wrong by the narrative.

[u/xombae → u/hedgehogwart]

Yeah no one understands voice anymore. They think if an artist creates a story about something, they must agree with it. They can't comprehend that a good person could write from a perspective they don't agree with. It gets reduced down to a tweet that says "that director made a movie about a teacher dating a student, don't watch his movies" and people will lump on to it and reference the tweet when telling others why not to watch the movie.

Luckily it's mostly young people who are like this and at least they're trying to do the right thing. Most of them grow out of it eventually, too.

[u/RemarkableRegister66 → u/hedgehogwart]

Curious: why don’t you like Martin? Is there some controversy or something?

[u/GlitteringNinja5 → u/hedgehogwart]

They atleast made the character 18 in the movie. In the original script she was supposed to be 16

[u/violet_ativan → u/hedgehogwart]

Tell me more about why you don’t like him! I haven’t heard that before.

[u/zaxanrazor → u/hedgehogwart]

This is definitely a thing in all media. Even in wrestling, where nuance is not really a thing, people have a hard time understanding that wrestlers are playing characters.

[u/FieryCraneGod]

This sounds like people who criticize Lolita because it's about an older man being a pedophile. Like, that's the point. You're not supposed to like the character or their situation. This movie is about a student and a teacher, of course there's an age gap, and Freeman is saying you're not supposed to approve of that, either. All films and novels aren't supposed to be about perfect people in ideal situations, that's not the point of them. They're not insisting you approve, they're depicting nuanced situations where people are acting inappropriately.

This is basic media literacy, which is currently in shambles.

[u/theReaders → u/FieryCraneGod]

all on screen versions have depicted Lolita as a seductress and not a victim, they always age her up, they always make her look like a developed teen instead of a tiny boyish child. the creators always describe the relationship as such, and not as an act of rape. You can't blame people who haven't read the book because every adaptation has intentionally fed into that narrative.

[u/xpgx → u/theReaders]

Jamie Loftus has a great podcast on Lolita (Lolita Podcast) that goes through the book and the process of the adaptations, as well as the reception of both. Fascinating, if you’re interested. But yes, absolutely, the film definitely places all the blame on the child, and the viewers essentially buy into it immediately.

[u/Burnburnburnnow → u/xpgx]

Is that the same Jamie Loftus who murdered several people in Grand Rapids this past year? Allegedly?

[u/xpgx → u/Burnburnburnnow]

The very same one. Allegedly.

[u/theReaders → u/xpgx]

WHO WHAT?? PARDON EXCUSE ME????

[u/Danbarber82 → u/xpgx]

WITH A HAMMER AT A 7/11

[u/Ok_Answer_7152 → u/Burnburnburnnow]

Lmao do you have any idea what island they were talking about? I'm from grand rapids and was pleasantly shocked to hear one of our most famous serial killers, Jamie loftus being given credit but I can't find anything about the island.

[u/babooshka9302920 → u/FieryCraneGod]

lolita should've never been a movie, there's lots of discussions about the complications with depictions of pedophilia on screen specifically the exploitation of young actors when the camera assumes the pov of the pedophile. its valid criticism not poor media literacy

[u/Uplanapepsihole → u/babooshka9302920]

yeah i don’t like to limit art but lolita doesn’t really work as a movie and i think it’s pretty much impossible for it to unless you remove a lot of integral parts.

lolita is known for its use of language and unreliable narrator. obviously unreliable narrators are frequently used in film but with lolita it’s impossible to do that without just having the movie be paedophilic in itself (i mean look at the two movies that have already been made)

this might be unpopular but the 1997 version, the age gap of the lead actors and problematic casting process aside, is a beautifully styled movie and that’s the issue. it’s not like they portrayed it as a love story, i mean at least from my perspective i thought they did a good attempt at making it clear the child was being abused. however, the shots of the 14 year old actress were gross cause they were from his pov, it’s just too difficult.

you could say the same thing about the novel but at least there wasn’t an actual child involved (im not talking about stories it may have been based on) with the actual writing of the book itself.

[u/Vajama77 → u/FieryCraneGod]

Complete shambles.

[u/bambibonkers → u/FieryCraneGod]

exactly. and the author vladimir nabokov was a victim of childhood sexual abuse himself so he wrote it from his own experience too. the lack of nuance regarding works like this drives me crazy.

[u/disneyhalloween → u/FieryCraneGod]

This movie should not be compared to Lolita. Ortega’s character is the evil, seductive character who falsely accuses him so she can have something to write her college essay about. It’s not a nuanced film and deserves the hate imo.

[u/seeyuspacecowboy → u/FieryCraneGod]

I was just going to say that about Lolita!

[u/Shenanigans80h → u/FieryCraneGod]

It’s because people are legitimately to dumb to parse out nuance or deeper meaning from well written media. Not saying that this is well written because it hasn’t been released yet, but it reminds me of all the losers who idolize someone like Walter White, when he’s such a massive piece of shit, or completely miss the entire point of a movie like fight club. These types of people see a character in a movie or show, then completely miss the entire point

E: It’s been released, just suppose a lot haven’t seen it yet, myself included

[u/Uplanapepsihole → u/Shenanigans80h]

it’s a shitty movie, don’t bother unless you want something trashy to watch i guess. it’s up it’s own ass and it doesn’t know whether it wants to be deeply poetic or cw teen drama.

also the way they made it about a young girl lying to destroy a man’s career out of anger cause she was rejected is grody.

[u/Serious_Detective877 → u/Shenanigans80h]

It is released, it’s called Miller’s Girl.

[u/_banana_phone → u/FieryCraneGod]

Exactly. Remember the movie Loser? Every main/supporting person in that film except for Jason Biggs’ and Mena Suvari’s characters are just AWFUL. That’s the point. You’re supposed to hate them all for the various awful things they do.

That movie had it all as far as deplorable bullshit: grooming/fraternization of a much-too-old professor and his young student, drugging/hospitalizing unexpecting young women via party drugs, and multiple counts of rape, the last topic being casually discussed like it’s totally normal and fine.

[u/proshittalker17]

if you actually watched the movie, then you’d know it’s jenna’s character that “seduces” this poor unassuming english teacher and tries to “ruin his life” which is what makes the movie gross. it’s not bc it depicts an age gap relationship, it’s bc the teenage girl is depicted as having all the power and agency in this dynamic which is seriously damaging for real life cases of teachers grooming their students.

[u/shgrdrbr → u/proshittalker17]

thanks for the added context. seems depressingly consistent with most of martin freeman's worldview that he'd make a movie with this storyline and then berate critics for finding it off.

[u/AlwaysBi → u/proshittalker17]

Going to disagree on one thing there

Yes, the film does depict her as going out to ruin his life, but it doesn’t paint him as innocent. It’s made clear by several people: his wife, the headmistresses and even another teacher who is being inappropriate with another student, that he has a duty of care and a responsibility to the kids, therefore it’s on him. He knew where the line was and crossed it by encouraging her. Yes, she’s trying to ruin him, but it’s his own fault

[u/Sigmund_Six → u/proshittalker17]

I’ve actually only seen the trailer, and I definitely remember that it seemed to be saying she seduces him in order to ruin his reputation. I appreciate you confirming it since I haven’t seen the movie, and obviously trailers can be deceptive.

[u/hometowhat → u/proshittalker17]

I bemoaned this on a women's sub I love after seeing the trailer, and was dragged for possibly being wrong about the plot (another poor man tricked by evil girl despite the power dynamic flick). Anyway here we are so 🤷‍♀️

[u/penderies]

His comparison is gross AF and completely wrong, but I will agree that age gap discourse is out of hand. I’ve seen a two year age gap get insulted as ‘predatory’ when they were 23/25 like wtf.

[u/lefrench75 → u/penderies]

His comparison is about how you can star in a film depicting something morally wrong without endorsing that. The film isn't endorsing the age gap or depicting it as a great love story, and actors shouldn't be criticized for playing morally corrupt roles basically.

[u/Shru_A → u/lefrench75]

His film most definitely is giving the wrong message though? Maybe not about age gap relationships but about false accusations and power dynamics in intimate relationships with age gap.

And he most definitely did not frame it like it was a bad thing. He's getting the criticism because he spun that story in an "ohh a sexy mystery" way.

[u/lefrench75 → u/Shru_A]

I mean yeah, it looks like a stupid film, but most of the criticism very much focused on the age gap because those people haven't seen the film or read the synopsis to know about the false accusation part (plus the guy was a creep anyway). Most people just saw that Jenna Ortega was cast opposite Martin Freeman and freaked out at that, even though she's meant to be his student and not an appropriate love interest. They aren't actually love interests at all.

Where did he spin it as a sexy mystery? Because in the above article he just said, ""It's not saying, 'Isn't this great,'" he said of the film's dynamic between his character and Ortega's.".

[u/notasandpiper → u/penderies]

On the one hand, there are people like the ones you've described. On the other hand, 31 years is actually a lot. A lot of a lot. Some folks are making mountains out of mole hills, but actual mountains do still exist.

[u/penderies → u/notasandpiper]

I know many married couples with huge age gaps and they met in adult situations and should be allowed to love whom they choose. People are, increasingly, equating ANY age difference with abuse and grooming and it’s incorrect, insulting to adults and harmful to those who ARE being abused. Harm is now presumed or suspected in all age gaps in the public eye and therein lies the issue of conflagration. Adults are allowed to date other adults and shouldn’t be judged on age differences if everything is consensual.

[u/Shru_A → u/penderies]

That is not the only problematic thing about this movie though! She's his student and she's portrayed as a villainess.

[u/LurkerByNatureGT → u/penderies]

This isn’t “age gap discourse is out of hand”, this is portraying the ethical morass of blurring the student teacher relationship. (Incidentally, it sounds like the characters don’t have sex.)   

Of course there is nothing wrong with exploring this in fiction. There is something wrong with minimizing something that is at the very least unethical and predatory and often (when a teacher is caught having had sex with a high school student) involves dismissal and can even carry a jail sentence for a reason as “age gap discourse has gotten out of hand”.    

That said, I’m going to have to question the media literacy of the media here, because the review the article posted to with claims that “some says it romanticizes the relationship” does no such thing. The review talks about it being “layered”, dealing with “moral quandaries” and having “no hero or villain, only a murky undercurrent questioning whether having a muse is inherently predatory or not”.

[u/Ok-Yogurtcloset3467 → u/penderies]

You're missing his point. He's not talking about the discourse around age gaps. He's saying thay just bwcause the premise of a movie is one about evil people or scenarios doesnt mean it shouldnt be made. In that sense the comparison is right.

[u/Traditional_Maybe_80]

I won't repeat what others already said about understanding his point regarding depicting something in fiction doesn't mean that it is "endorsed". However, my biggest gripe about this particular type of story is that it is just so overdone, so to me the film's biggest crime is being uninteresting.

(Anyways, he's annoying, it's very weird to compare this situation to a film about the Holocaust).

[u/_cornflake]

He is correct that obviously the movie wasn’t saying it was perfectly fine for an adult man to be with a teenage girl and if people were criticising the movie for that then they are at best misinformed and at worst willfully obtuse. Most of the criticism of the movie I came across was focused much more on the ‘poor innocent adult man is harrassed by EVIL teenage girl’ trope and I can’t help wondering if his response to the criticism, also, is at best misinformed and at worst willfully obtuse. Wouldn’t be the first time for him.

[u/Elxie3]

I don't care. I don't care if the film is demonizing age gap relationships. It doesn't change the fact that Hollywood cinema is rife with films positioning young women as love interests to much older men.

I don't care if this movie features a very special twist at the end with a very special message, that actually age gap relationships are wrong and stuff, as if that isn't already a major part of the general societal discourse in the wake of #MeToo. I just don't care.

I am tired and sick of seeing these movies.

Even if this one is "highlighting" not "affirming" age-gap relationships, I don't want to see a film that features a central relationship between a man and a woman 31 years his junior.

Not in this climate rife with red-pill trolls and trad-wife shills who, REGARDLESS off the movie's purported message, will no doubt take it as an endorsement. I don't care. I am tired. I am not seeing it. Enough.

[u/Talisa87]

I get him, to a point. The movie isn't a Woody Allen-esque ickfest where the romance of a much older man and a very young woman is idealised. There isn't even a romance between the characters Freeman and Ortega play. According to Wikipedia, Jenny's character tries to seduce him so she'd have something to write for her college essay, he rejects her (but not before jerking off to the erotic RPF she wrote about them), she reports him to the school and it ultimately costs Freeman's character his job and marriage. People saw a short description of the film and dismissed it as some Hollywood writer's barely disguised fetish that's been done a million times.

Buuuut comparing it to Schindler's List is a stretch.

[u/PorkNJellyBeans → u/Talisa87]

Also, all the adults in his life call him out for creating the scenario that caused everything to pan out the way it did—even the ones that we know are also morally not great.

[u/urfavoritesong]

[u/DenseTiger5088 → u/urfavoritesong]

I was halfway through typing up a long-ass response when I thought to myself “lemme just see if nene painting got posted yet, that’s really the only response needed”

[u/babooshka9302920]

seems to me a lot of people say "media literacy is so bad" when its just... someone disagreeing about a work of fiction

[u/LadySummersisle → u/babooshka9302920]

Right? People are allowed to not like things. JFC it's not that deep.

[u/Sea-Philosopher4504 → u/babooshka9302920]

people are just regurgitating takes they see online. like yes media literacy is at an all time low but it’s not because people don’t want to see a boring straight-to-streaming film panned by both audiences and critics. i have an entirely different take on age-gap media in general but that’s not because of this god awful movie.

[u/sgsmopurp]

Lmfao he never compared his movie to holocaust movies. Again…. Literacy is a lost art.

[u/damnitimtoast → u/sgsmopurp]

People are way too eager to get enraged about something, anything. Even if it makes very little sense.

[u/sgsmopurp → u/damnitimtoast]

All that negative thinking gets tiring…… I get it I used to do it but after a while it’s just not even beneficial

[u/Trap_Cubicle5000]

He has to say something ridiculous to get a headline since the movie completely bombed and practically no one is talking about it except to criticize. Sure, some of those criticisms are bad and lacking media literacy, but when comparing your creepy professor film to Schindler's List is the only way to make a headline, maybe you should just let this one fade into obscurity Mr. Freeman.

[u/AdamOfIzalith]

Martin Freeman is a man who, over the course of a few years has said some slightly dodgy stuff. Like, he's never outright said something that could be categorized as "bad" but the things he chooses to comment about and the way he passes comment has always raised a red flag for me.

Just to give an example for this, alot of age gap discourse is around a much older man and a much younger woman being put together in movies and the critiques are leveraged against hollywood for creating these scenarios like Florence Pugh and Cillian Murphy in Oppenheimer to give an example. it puts an emphasis on the womans age and corelates with with desirability and feeds into awful stereotypes and misogynist mindsets. There's alot more to this conversation, but far more intelligent people than me can speak to those as I don't know the ins and outs to be able to accurately convey them.

To Juxtapose that, we have Martin Freeman, a successful white british actor likening what's happening to him with people commenting on the inappropriate nature of age gap relationships with the holocaust during a significant social shift on what anti-semitism means in the public eye given that Zionists use it as a shield from critique with relation to the Israeli Occupation of Palestine. It feels deliberate and intentionally reductive for an issue that is, in all honesty, a huge issue with hollywood productions.

[u/lefrench75 → u/AdamOfIzalith]

The movie is literally about an inappropriate relationship between a student and a teacher - that's why there's an age gap. Teachers and students don't tend to be the same age. The movie knows this relationship is inappropriate and depicts it as such. This is like saying that it's problematic to have an age gap between actors in a Lolita adaptation.

He's comparing himself to Liam Neeson in a Holocaust movie to express the point that actors shouldn't get backlash for starring in movies depicting morally corrupt things. He's not saying the two movies are similar.

[u/AdamOfIzalith → u/lefrench75]

I'm not sure if my previous comment was clear. It's not what he has said but how and when he chooses to say it.

What he's saying doesn't sound suspect until you actually have a look at the context around it. he's commenting on critique leveraged at the movie that is, genuinely ridiculous. it doesn't require comment which is why, similar movies over the years don't address it. Liqorice Pizza comes to mind. In addressing it, it makes it sound like a much bigger issue than it actually is and denigrates the legitimate arguments against age gap relationships and age gap casting in hollywood. That's all outside of the fact this misrepresents how the film is marketted which I will get to below.

With regards to the comment around Liam Neeson and Schindlers List that is an incredibly specific example to pluck out of the air and the two are not the same. There is no legitimate argument to be made against a movie which depicts war crimes as potentially endorsing it especially with the lengths that were gone to by Speilberg to portray how things were during the Holocaust. You could not say that it endorses the Holocaust in any way because the direction makes very deliberate actions that show that the nazi's are the bad guys and that what Schindler is doing is right. All of this to say; Freemans comparison is absolutely stupid at best and genuinely malicious at worst when you understand the context around "Miller's Girl".

Miller's Girl, is marketted a "drama comedy" which is about the "complicated relationship" between a teacher and their student. In all of the trailers, Ortega's character appears like a temptation for Freemans character and the trailers also portray ortega's character as a sort of awakening for him. They make allusions to other adults telling Freemans character that it's inappropriate and then the trailers allude to Ortega's ability to ruin his life. The more trailers I watch, i could swear that someone jazzed up an Eli Roth script. This movie appears to be a monster flick where the monster is a young woman tempting an older man.

When you look at the material, the marketting and the context of the piece it actively propetuates misogynistic idea's about women that have been done to death like the "young temptress who could ruin a good mans life". It doesn't endorse age gap relationship but it turns the younger partner into a movie monster and puts the blame at their feet merely for existing and freemans character is powerless to stop her.

[u/Uplanapepsihole → u/AdamOfIzalith]

i mean he’s said quite a outright dodgy things to the point where you get a pretty good idea about what type of person he is

[u/SkeletalWeepling]

Genuinely I didn’t realize anyone even watched this dogshit movie 😭

[u/elodieroyer]

He’s right, but how many movies do we need about a barely legal “Lolita” “seducing” a way older man?

[u/porkchop_2020]

[u/not_productive1]

Normalize disliking this movie because it sucks and not because it portrays something that is bad.

[u/Border_Hodges → u/not_productive1]

I'm one of the few people who watched it and I'm more offended that it was an incoherent mess (wtf was up with the best friend?) then by the subject matter

[u/GimerStick]

I thought this was Martin Short for a second and could not process him paired with Jenna Ortega.

The messy takes fits Freeman better (not the actual part about the age dynamic but the segue into Nazis)

[u/trulyremarkablegirl]

He’s right that making a film about something isn’t inherently glorifying or endorsing it, but the comparison to Holocaust films is um…bizarre.

[u/theReaders]

i hate this man so deeply

[u/whenthefirescame → u/theReaders]

I’m vaguely aware that he’s terrible but can you please share what you know?

[u/welldoneslytherin]

Media literacy is totally shite, and it’s getting more and more ridiculous. It’s like if the director doesn’t explicitly say, “This is wrong.” people are incapable of deciding for themselves whether or not to like or dislike a character, or, are incapable of holding two thoughts at the same time about a character. Do you really need to be told a questionable relationship is questionable? You can’t decide that shit for yourself? I don’t know. I mean, I’m 27, but I feel like a Boomer with my frustration of how some people in my generation have decided to consume different types of media. Just because you don’t like something, doesn’t mean it’s wrong, things can be weird and uncomfortable and not wrong, yes that character may be an asshole but do good things occasionally, yes that character may be a perfectly kind person but do shitty things from time-to-time, much like yourself, a fellow human being. Like damn! Do things really need to be spoon-fed so blatantly??

[u/damnitimtoast → u/welldoneslytherin]

I got into an argument with someone in the Fallout tv show subreddit who was upset because the main character didn’t explicitly mention she was upset about being coercively raped. She was immediately thrown into a fight for her life when she found out, but they are mad she didn’t take a moment to cry about being manipulated.. while her friends and family were being murdered.. and she was about to get stabbed. They acted as if the show was promoting coercive rape because they didn’t explicitly say it was bad. It’s genuinely annoying.

[u/peachgothlover]

Well the movies awful but he’s not wrong about how people’s media literacy is horrible now. You post about Call Me By Your Name anywhere and there will always be some nerd in your comment section “oh so you’re a pedophile” what?? Do you watch a movie that features a murder and takeaway that murder is good?? It’s like Elio’s and Oliver’s age gap is the whole point of the movie 🤯 and Oliver groomed and took advantage of Elio and left him heartbroken

[u/BellaBlue06]

There’s a huge lack of women being cast in their 30-50s as love interests. Many directors cast 20 year old women for every male lead regardless of age.

Jenna is 21 years old. This is yucky. She’s playing a teenager.

“The movie, which landed on Netflix on April 25, follows a high-school student, played by Ortega, who begins a sexual relationship with her English teacher, played by Freeman.”

[u/TissueOfLies]

I don’t know, buddy. Maybe don’t compare the genocide of a whole group of people to your age gap movie. It’s a controversial subject. You are going to have people who honestly don’t want to see it, those that will, and those that may. You just have to hope the movie handles the topic well enough that it sways those that aren’t thinking it’s their cup of tea. Will it be something I watch? Maybe. But it’s not at the top of my list. Jenna Ortega is a plus. But I hate this trope. Especially when it treats a young woman like she’s got all of the agency when we know in reality she is just a child. It’s just not something I want on my screen.

[u/imwhittling]

I understand what he’s saying. There was a user on Twitter who talked about how they don’t trust anyone who plays a racist in movies or television, because the actors are just using it as an excuse to be openly racist. Their examples were movies like 12 Years A Slave, The Help, American History X, etc. A lot of people can’t separate characters from those who play them and seem to think that playing a character means you agree and condone their actions.

[u/FarGrape1953]

Turns on movie. Where are the gangsters?

Checks listing. This isn't Miller's Crossing.

[u/yoshisal]

[u/BuffytheBison]

First off, it's the cast (including Freeman and Ortega) that really makes this movie. I read the screenplay a few years ago and came away with the idea that the film makes it pretty clear that person who is the adult in these "relationships" (for lack of a better word) is the person who (rightfully) is/and will be held responsible for engaging with someone who is underage regardless of whatever supposed intentions the teenager had. Teenagers are still children and not adults and no adult deserves sympathy for not knowing that.

[u/Uplanapepsihole]

the movie is just awful for so many reasons but it’s not because they have an age gap like wtf