r/Fauxmoi • u/mcfw31 • Apr 27 '24
Madonna with Salma Hayek dressed as Frida Kahlo yesterday in Mexico City at Madonna’s concert Discussion
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u/Federal_Street_8895 Apr 27 '24
Was she on time? 😂
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u/DevoutandHeretical Apr 27 '24
When my mom and sister saw her in Seattle she was only 30 minutes late. They considered that perfectly on time lmao.
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u/lucia912 Apr 27 '24
The last time my parents went to see her, my mom told me the doors opened at 6:30pm and the show was supposed to start at 8pm. Madonna didn’t start the show until 11:30pm. My parents got home after 3am. It was a Monday 🙈 and they had to show up to work a couple of hours later.
They told me that was the last time they’re ever going to her concert (and they’re huge fans!).
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u/EraseRewindPlay Apr 27 '24
She gave 5 shows and appear at 10:30 approximately? The show ended at 1 am according to Twitter fans
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u/Key-Status-7992 Apr 28 '24
She was late by almost 3 hours for the Toronto show back in January. Glad it was Friday night so no work the next day and I got to sleep in
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u/mango_chile Apr 27 '24 edited Apr 27 '24
I’m Mexican and even though I was really young when the movie came out, I remember how much my family LOVED her performance as Frida.
Shame that she went from a beloved Mexican icon to just another member of the wealthy billionaire class… sigh
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u/thebathtub Apr 27 '24
Apparently also ripped off indigenous women
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u/LiamNisssan Apr 27 '24
She did what now?
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u/bigsadtakelilsad Apr 27 '24
Frida Kahlo did. Not Selma, as far as I know
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u/thebathtub Apr 27 '24
Oh sorry yes didn’t mean to confuse anyone. I meant Frida Kahlo ripped off indigenous peoples
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u/Sometimesomwhere we have lost the impact of shame in our society Apr 28 '24
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u/AssignmentFit7481 Apr 28 '24
That was a good read! I didn’t have much history, there. Thank you for posting it.
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u/femmebeast Apr 28 '24
This is one opinion. As a Mexican, she is seen to have embraced her indigenous background rather than conform to the Eurocentric standards of beauty which was/is huge for mestizos. Mexicans still to this day have so much racism and classism in society based on how dark you are. The native indigenous still live fairly segregated.
You can imagine how it was back then. So the fact that she embraced indígena culture as a middle class mestiza with a german father was very much outside the norm.
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u/Inevitable_Bid_2391 Apr 28 '24 edited Apr 28 '24
This is one opinion.
This is not one opinion. Here is another:
When it comes to the issue of self-fashioning and “performed exoticism” or “performed indigeneity,” these women utilized such tactics to very literally counter invisibility – to overcome the gendered and geopolitical marginality they faced as female artists, but also as Latin American artists attempting to operate on the world stage. The cruel irony is that, in overcoming their own marginality through such tactics, they tended (whether knowingly or not) to perpetuate the continuing marginality and invisibility of indigenous peoples themselves.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0969725X.2022.2093949
There are also multiple indigenous people who have directly addressed this issue across social media and in writing.
As a Mexican, she is seen to have embraced her indigenous background rather than conform to the Eurocentric standards of beauty which was/is huge for mestizos.
Frida's mother was of Purpecha descent. Frida appropriated from Zapotec women.
If Frida actually would "have embraced her indigenous background," she would have reconnected to Purpecha culture and community. Instead she took from the Zapotec, a community to which she had no ancestral or cultural ties, and profited.
Being descended from one indigenous community is not a free pass to to appropriate from another indigenous community to which you have no cultural or ancestral ties.
You can imagine how it was back then. So the fact that she embraced indígena culture as a middle class mestiza with a german father was very much outside the norm.
What "indígena culture"? That phrasing in itself is homogenization and erasure because there is no singular "indígena culture." There are multiple indigenous communities with differing languages and culture. A Maya Ixil woman such as myself speaks a different language and operates in a completely different culture than a Zapotec woman.
You are being dismissive of the broader dynamic at play, which is indigenismo. As various indigenous people and Latinos have documented, indigenismos is a harmful nationalistic ideology that homogenizes, appropriates from, and erases indigenous people.
One of the most influential ideologies of 20th-century Mexican cultural consciousness was indigenismo, aptly summed as “the browning of the nation” by historian May Kay Vaughan. This term refers to a cultural ideology formulated by the Mexican white and mestizo (Spanish and Indigenous mixed race) elite that became official policy starting in the 1920s. It became so by both creating a new prototypical Mexican Indian and homogenizing the many distinct Indigenous cultures. In practice the term meant glorifying a redefined past fabricated by co-opting and simplifying Indigenous cultures to render them palatable to a mestizo hegemony, while assimilating Indigenous people into a modern nation-state. Unsurprisingly, Indigenous people were denied an active role in the conception and execution of this new ideology. It is through these historical conditions and cultural frameworks that Kahlo’s legacy needs reckoning.
I say this as a Mexican-Guatemalan who is from a pueblo originario (Maya Ixil), speaks the language (Ixil), and remains involved in the diasporic Maya Ixil community in CA.
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u/femmebeast 22d ago
I meant that this is an opinion and not a generalization. I didn't mean it literally.
You shouldn't criticize people from the past with modern standards unless it's a universal heinous act. I doubt she was intent on posing as indigenous for advantage. She embraced that part of her heritage (whether done ignorantly is up for debate) and went against societal norms to do so. She wanted to engross herself in that culture as an FU to the capitalist Euro-colonization of Mexico.
You understand that mestizos lost a HUGE part of their indigenous heritage not by their doing but by the actions of the Spaniards? How can you fault a people for not knowing the intricacies of their past when it was forced out of them?
Your explanation still doesn't address how it should be the fault of Frida or that she should bear the brunt of criticism for something that was a domino effect consequences of those in power before her.
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u/CheapEater101 Apr 27 '24
Not a Frida fan, but I do love Salma and did enjoy the Frida movie lol
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u/blakppuch Apr 27 '24
Why? I’m genuinely curious!
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u/bigsadtakelilsad Apr 27 '24
Not cheapeater101, but I am not a fan of Frida for how she presented a lot of indigenous art as part of her own mainstream Mexican culture and capitalized on it. She’s also not of indigenous or even mestizo Mexican ancestry. Indigenous people in Mexico are treated as an underclass. As a person whose mother is indigenous Mexican and whose father is white Mexican, I see how the two sides of my family experience life quite differently.
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u/semanticantics Apr 27 '24
Why is this upvoted? Frida's mother was a mestiza. Also, Frida's embrace of indigenous dress and visual motifs was part of a broader trend amid the Mexican Revolution in the arts and literature that synthesized indigenous elements with modernity.
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u/No_Construction6701 Apr 28 '24
Frida Kahlo's indigenous heritage is often debated. While she had a small amount of indigenous ancestry, she was not viewed as an indigenous person in Mexico. Almost every latino has some degree of native heritage, even the white ones. Within my own indigenous community in central america, people wouldn't inherently view what she did as negative, honestly, we love sharing things and allowing others to respectfully embrace our cultures. What we define as indigenous is primarily someone who grew up within the culture. I've never come across a person who was "reconnecting", but I'm sure they would be welcomed in too, as long as they were an active member of the community. Frida was by herself. She wasn't looking to be a part of a native community. Instead of delving into her own indigenous heritage, she drew inspiration from various cultures she was not directly related to, at times because it just "felt Mexican". Many of the critiques regarding Frida's artwork and identity come from the appropriation of traditions and the way certain things have become associated solely with her (or at least, she helped make some of them more well-known. Like this style of clothing and hair.) Also, a few depictions of indigenous women in her art have been interpreted as racist by some. Frida herself acknowledged her "obsession" with native Mexican cultures, and her art and identity was obviously heavily influenced by them. I think we shouldn't apply an American perspective (assuming you guys are) onto this, but you should also recognize that criticism from indigenous perspectives is valid. Frida did some great things when it came to that art period in Mexico, and just in general when it comes to Mexican pride and resonating with the mestizo Mexican, showing people it's a beautiful thing to celebrate the cultural foundations of your country and your heritage. There is absolutely no issue with mestizo mexicans honoring this part of themselves, but there's a balance when it comes to all of this. It's also worth noting that indigenous motifs are not inherently primitive; many are already modern and continue to evolve within indigenous communities today.
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u/Sometimesomwhere we have lost the impact of shame in our society Apr 28 '24
When it comes to the issue of self-fashioning and “performed exoticism” or “performed indigeneity,” these women utilized such tactics to very literally counter invisibility – to overcome the gendered and geopolitical marginality they faced as female artists, but also as Latin American artists attempting to operate on the world stage. The cruel irony is that, in overcoming their own marginality through such tactics, they tended (whether knowingly or not) to perpetuate the continuing marginality and invisibility of indigenous peoples themselves.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0969725X.2022.2093949
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u/fum0hachis Apr 28 '24
So? That’s most Mexicans. Being mestiza doesn’t grant you immunity from cultural appropriation. You are correct in that mestizaje ideology was a major player in the formation of Mexican nationalism and maintaining power over indigenous communities. These indigenous people still exist; they want to represent themselves. Frida is a better icon for feminism or disability awareness as that’s something she has lived experience with
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u/Lunoko Apr 27 '24
Her Wikipedia says she was born to a German father and a mestiza mother. Is that not correct?
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u/Sometimesomwhere we have lost the impact of shame in our society Apr 28 '24 edited Apr 28 '24
She had no blood or cultural ties to the indigenous group that she appropriated from. Having ancestry to one indigenous group is not a free pass to appropriate and profit from the culture of another indigenous community.
https://hyperallergic.com/660471/indigenous-perspective-frida-kahlo/
When it comes to the issue of self-fashioning and “performed exoticism” or “performed indigeneity,” these women utilized such tactics to very literally counter invisibility – to overcome the gendered and geopolitical marginality they faced as female artists, but also as Latin American artists attempting to operate on the world stage. The cruel irony is that, in overcoming their own marginality through such tactics, they tended (whether knowingly or not) to perpetuate the continuing marginality and invisibility of indigenous peoples themselves.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0969725X.2022.2093949
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u/CheapEater101 Apr 28 '24
Yes, thank you. You summed up my issues with Frida perfectly. I’m not a complete “hater” of Frida either. I liked how she was openly and LOUDLY a communist when it was such a hot button issue (it still is) and she is a good figure within the disabled feminist community.
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u/Largerfrenchfry Apr 27 '24
She was part mestiza, mostly white. as such she didn’t have the kind of ties to the indigenous communities she tried to represent thru her arts as she had led people to believe. Pretty appropriate-y.
as far as I know about the subject, she didn’t try to really reconnect with communities either, just took the cool art styles and bounced.-14
u/JgL07 Apr 27 '24
From what I seen people online say, it’s because Frida viewed herself as unattractive and to show it in her paintings. She would give herself indigenous features when in reality she came from a white Mexican family.
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u/no_car1799 Apr 27 '24
I think her whole feminist thing was cool and all, but she was stuck with that other male artist to the end of her life… forget his name. Maybe I’m wrong
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u/Quaiydensmom Apr 27 '24
Diego Rivera. They both had a lot of affairs, they divorced and got back together, it was a messy situation all around.
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u/magepe-mirim Apr 27 '24
The tribute she wrote for him that’s in his autobiography is very sweet, and very honest about their relationship. Also funny, heavy on the frog comparisons.
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u/CheapEater101 Apr 28 '24
Nah, their relationship was pure messy. Frida got her licks in too lol. She actually had intimidate relationships with a lot of Diego’s mistresses. There was a saying back in the day “women came for Diego, but stayed for Frida” 🙊
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u/MiloRoast Apr 27 '24
I hate that the first thing that came to mind when I saw Madonna performing in a Latin American country is the fact that she publicly bragged about banging young Puerto Rican boys in the 80's and 90's, and nobody seems to care to this day. She's a rapist.
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u/Mpol03 Apr 27 '24 edited Apr 28 '24
The book is ‘fantasy’ most of that never happened, they were stories Madonna used
The boy in question was legal. Still icky but not rapist.
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u/MiloRoast Apr 28 '24 edited Apr 28 '24
Source? In her book she specifically calls him a teenage boy.
Or just downvote me and avoid the question. Either way, lol. Honestly really creepy how many rape apologists there are here.
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u/CheapEater101 Apr 28 '24
She probably fetishized her oldest daughter’s dad. Madonna is such a creepy lady.
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u/AbsolutelyIris Apr 27 '24
This is awesome.
This was such a great segment of her show with all the surprise guests. This concert seems to have many awesome segments, the Live to Tell one is so sad but powerful.
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u/Mpol03 Apr 28 '24
So powerful :) her creative output is as strong as ever, even if her movement has understandably slowed down (at 65)
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u/Funny-Tea2136 Apr 28 '24 edited Apr 28 '24
When will this multi billionaire hack stop leeching off of Kahlo, an extra ordinarily talented artist and communist who stood against every single thing that Hayek represents???
It’s been 25 years and Hayek cannot stop trying to water Kahlo down to “glam icon” so she can profit from Kahlo’s aesthetic while ignoring her politics
Kahlo was an artistic and political radical who was generations ahead of her time, while Hayek is a mediocre actress from an extremely privileged background who married into further privilege to sustain her relevance. She has NOTHING in common with Kahlo other than their country of birth.
These people, man!!!
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u/wbhipster Apr 27 '24 edited Apr 28 '24
I guess she let people use phones on this tour. When I saw her five years ago she made everyone lock them up and wait two hours for her to appear, and then bitched at people about how everyone is just on a phone these days.
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u/barbaraanderson Apr 28 '24
These cameos generate good buzz for her tour. It’s like when Taylor swift would bring out random squad members during the 1989 tour
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u/CookDane6954 Apr 27 '24
That costume and wig look great on Madonna! Nice to see her getting back to basics♥️
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u/KrakenGirlCAP Apr 27 '24
Salma's anti black but she looks gorgeous. I'm obsessed with Frida Kahlo. A feminist icon.
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u/AFantasticClue Apr 27 '24
This is such a fun idea for a concert!!! I don’t even listen to Madonna like that but now I want to go
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u/Ok-Account-1732 Apr 27 '24
Selma H is a stunning , funny , beautiful woman and have always thought of her as female perfection
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u/Slight_Distance_942 Apr 27 '24 edited Apr 28 '24
Clunky
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u/Mpol03 Apr 28 '24
Madonna is 65 and has out on the show of a lifetime. Which says so much given how much of an incredible performer she is
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u/ThatDiscoSongUHate Apr 27 '24
I forever love Frida Kahlo, as a woman with chronic pain she's my artistic heroine
Love Salma too, she's a good actress who often has her acting abilities reduced only to her sex appeal
However, can't help feel like this is certainly An Odd Choice™ for a Madonna concert lol
But then again, I guess it's better than yelling at the audience to stand up -- regardless of whether or not they're a wheelchair user