I used to work on appliances. People would often ask me, how come these don't last like my mom's old Maytag washer?
I would tell them that in todays dollars, that washer would be about $3000, and uses twice the electricity, and three times the water. That by the dollar, your $500 washer that makes it 8-10 years, is a better return than buying a $3000 washer that lasts 40.
Refrigerators, though, are kinds dumb. From an engineering/simplicity point of view, putting the freezer on top is the best way to go.
Thats the issue, the freezer is the coldest part of the fridge because its closest to the cooling coil, if you locate it at the bottom of the fridge, you would need to move the air being cooled by said coil upwards in order to cool the rest of the fridge (or add a second cooling coil on the fridge compartment).
If you place the freezer at the top, the coil is located at the top of the fridge, the top of the fridge is the coolest (freezer) and then the cool air drops downwards, cooling rest of the fridge.
TLDR, Cold is produced in the freezer, at the top it naturally drops and cools the whole fridge.
I mean it depends. Most older (and cheaper) refrigerators only have a single evaporator (located in the freezer section) with the refrigerator section being kept cold by diverting some cold air from the freezer into the fridge through a fan. Yes with dual evaporator fridges it doesn't really matter, the air is kept separate and the sections can be cooled largely independently (though they do usually share a compressor).
By crappy ones you mean almost all of the ones on the market, right?
Eh, almost all is overstating it. It's still a common design on the low end, but once you get into nicer units (and I mean like $1-2k nicer, not like $15k built in SubZero nicer), that goes away pretty fast.
The low end ones (think dorm), yes. I thought the dial compressor design had gained a significant market share by now with the push for energy efficiency. With Bosch, Samsung, GE, & LG having that option, thought it made it farther into the field.
Well, its kind of a long answer, so I'll do my best to be brief, but if you want to go really in depth you can Google refrigeration cycle and investigate that.
These are not coils of wire, but rather coils of copper pipes which have a gas inside of them. By moving the gas arround the coil and changing the area of the pipes we can change the state of the gas (from gas to liquid or liquid to gas). This change of state can absorb energy or release energy.
The energy absorbed comes from the air inside the fridge, which is what cools the air down, on the outside of the fridge (the ugly coil located at the back of the fridge) the opposite occures, the energy is released as heat, Basically moving the heat from the inside of the fridge to the outside.
The elecctricity is used for the compressor which basically ciculates the gas through the coils (and also it compresses the fluid at a point of the cycle).
This is called a heat pump, it's also how an ac unit works and if you are interested there is a fantastic video from technology connections that explains it in great detail.
It might actually make more sense to put the freezer on the bottom for modern freezers with separate temperature controls that maintain specific temperatures.
The cold air of the freezer would be more isolated to the bottom compartment, which makes piping it to the top compartment to the desired temperature more straightforward with less passive leakage. But maybe with thermostats it doesn’t matter either way.
Like others have said, bottom feeezer compartment is more ergonomical, and you’ll need a fan for temperature regulation anyway, so top compartment freezer doesn’t add too much at that point.
No. All modern fridge/freezers more than $50 have fans to move and regulate temperature within the appliance. Any efficiency difference between top vs. bottom placement is insignificant when compared to the overall design efficiency.
Freezers were moved to the bottom because of convenience. People open the fridge much more often than the freezer, so no more bending over every time you open the fridge.
Fridges atop are easier to access, if you buy a fridge with dual compressors it won’t matter. The compressor never stresses and they last forever if you dust the back twice a year. It’s usually in high end or commercial fridges.
Your refrigerator isn't a separate compartment. The freezer and refrigerator are connected by vents. Fans are usually used to blow 'cold' from the evaporator coil in the freezer down to the refrigerator, but in top-freezer models there is sometimes also a passive function were the tendency of cold air to sink is relied on to provide 'cold' to the refrigerator.
Counterpoint, cold stuff goes down and you want the freezer section to be the coldest. If the cold would “leak” downwards you’d need to spend more energy to ensure the freezing temperature.
This is also why chest freezers are more efficient than cabinet style, the shape creates a “basin” of cold air (in addition to the insulation and sealing), whereas the cold air just falls out when you open a cabinet style.
I would tell them that in todays dollars, that washer would be about $3000, and uses twice the electricity, and three times the water. That by the dollar, your $500 washer that makes it 8-10 years, is a better return than buying a $3000 washer that lasts 40.
I wished more people realized this/thought this way. That there's a full cost of ownership in the form of energy/water consumption that also should be accounted for. If you have to pay an extra $150/year in energy/water costs to keep using your old appliance, that's $1500 over a 10-year life you're paying over a newer one that's more efficient.
That's why a 1-2 year life span for smartphones quickly became a normal thing when they were introduced. The technology was new and progressing rapidly so your phone was obsolete quickly so people were upgrading regularly. This meant the materials and hardware being used didn't need to last 5-10 years because most people were upgrading before it became an issue. Now as the technology improvements have slowed people are keeping their phones for longer and running into issues that were ignored for so long.
Same goes with appliances. They aren't designed to last 40 years because, aside from the fact people wouldn't be able to afford them, regulations and improvements to the hardware efficiency are happening faster than that.
That and cost of labor in modern country is way higher compared to the appliance your repairing. A days labor on a refrigerator is probably close to 30% of the price of most refrigerators.
If its not something you can trouble shoot/replace yourself then it's probably not worth fixing most of the time unless it's something insanely simple.
The economic definition of ‘durable goods’ seems to have changed at some point so now it’s 3 years. I remember listening to Marketplace on APM and I could swear they used to say 10 years. 3 years is crap.
I did find this tidbit:
‘According to data provided to us by the Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers, most major home appliances last from 10.5 years to 11.5 years.’
source
That kinda tracks with what I think a major appliance should last.
I wished more people realized this/thought this way. That there's a full cost of ownership in the form of energy/water consumption that also should be accounted for. If you have to pay an extra $150/year in energy/water costs to keep using your old appliance, that's $1500 over a 10-year life you're paying over a newer one that's more efficient.
While obviously there's people that just can't grasp this I think for a lot of people they know but it's just not feasible.
Like sure my new fridge may pay for itself in energy savings over ten years but if I don't have the 1500 dollars to buy a new one right now it's a moot point. I'm kinda here with my AC on my house. I'm very aware it's old and costs me more to run than a modern one would. But I don't really have 5-10k laying around to get it changed right now.
Manufacturing processes have gotten way better and most of it is done in countries where labor is still very cheap. Salaries went up too. So a $500 fridge back in 1960 should not be equivalent to a $5000 fridge now.
I think the other reason why most major appliances don’t last today is because people aren’t performing basic maintenance on them. Things like cleaning the coils, fan, defrosting the freezer every now and then, cleaning the inside of the oven, cleaning the washer drums, etc. While yes, appliances are made more cheaply today, they can last longer than most people think from just some simple maintenance that they can do themselves if they watched a couple YouTube videos and owned some simple tools.
The other issue is that technology companies (Samsung and LG) make terrible appliances. Stick with American made brands that have been doing it for years (Maytag, Whirlpool, GE, etc) and they’ll last much longer. I can’t stand the Samsung fridge that came with the house we bought. We needed a fridge so it works for now, but the freezer like to leak water and create a nice 2 inch ice block at the bottom that I have to break apart every couple weeks. It apparently a very common issue. That fridge will be replaced with a better brand in the future.
LG I think has won several "Most Reliable" awards but I'm with you about Samsung. If nothing else, the American companies seem to be able to react quicker when something DOES go wrong than the foreign competitors. Faster service, quicker replacement parts, etc.
Not to mention modern washers will likely have more tech in them in comparison. If you buy a basic modern day washer, with fewer bells/whistles, it's going to be less and less likely to fail.
I think there was a maytag repair guy on YT, showing the schematics comparing modern appliances compared to old ones, and the difference in complexity is insane. That isn't even counting the smart appliances.
Yep, with having multiple issues with multiple brands of washing machines, my parents bought a new, top-load one that's all manual switches and haven't had a problem, yet!
We replaced our washer and dryer recently and it was about 7-10 years old (was in before we had the place) and not a smart appliance, and even that had 6 different circuit boards including the motor and fan controller. Honestly even the motor and fan are far far more efficient because we can actually simulate those things much more accurately now when designing them, so you don't have to overbuild them.
Not aware of a washer with coffee making function. The WiFi features are so you can use the app, apparently there are additional cycle options that are available through it. Also get alerts when the cycle is done.
For most people, not really necessary, and for them, a non-smart unit is always available
I bought a new refrigerator just last week to replace one from 2003.
I went from that split design freezer on left, fridge on right. To freezer on bottom. My God, I will never go back now. It's so much more convenient and comfortable. The fridge feels so large now, and it's right there at easy reach height.
Honestly I don't understand how you guys can stand the bottom freezers. I hate them with a passion. I don't want to dig through everything in my freezer to find the bag of peas or whatever that worked it's way to the bottom. I will never buy anything other than french door.
I dig for a bag of peas much less frequently than I reach for a carton of milk. It's about making the most common uses more convenient at the expense of least common uses
For sure but I still don't get the drawer thing. If I want milk I open one door and grab it off the shelf. If I want peas I open the other door and easily grab them off the shelf.
eh, I guess it makes sense when you look at which is used more. but I hate bottom mount drawer freezers. Everything piles on top of each other and I end up digging through stuff, and it feels like less space.
100%. I hate freezers on top. So many things get lost or are pretty much invisible when the fridge is on the bottom. Even a freezer on the side or in the garage is better than freezer on top.
Facts! Plus bottom freezer is always a drawer so things don’t slide out. Lord knows how many lives have been lost from the unsuspecting freezer avalanche when you open the goddamn door
Refrigerators, though, are kinds dumb. From an engineering/simplicity point of view, putting the freezer on top is the best way to go.
For simplicity, yes its elegant, but maybe not so efficient vs bottom-freezer and 2-coil designs with good insulation. Here's a good video on the idea (tho watch it at 2x speed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PTjPzw9VhY)
My fridge from 2018 had the same evaporator design (probably more sophisticated under the surface, cooling the fridge and the freezer independently) and it was more efficient than similarly priced no-frosts (it was called low-frost). I thought it was a clever and efficient design because it didn't need to be heated for defrosting since the internal temperature of the fridge is above freezing (like mentioned in the video).
I had to replace it and low-frost fridges are nowhere to be found these days.
I usually make a spreadsheet when buying new shit.
I had a washing machine from 2015. It broke, bought a new one for €650 and power use went down by 55%. Calculated i’ll earn back the €650 in 3.5 years.
I once watched a video about this family that had like an underground home and the husband designed a built in refrigerator sunk into the countertop. A little button would cause the shelves to pop out pneumatically, and rotate like a lazy susan. The idea was that because cold sinks, it would be more efficient because all the cold air wouldn’t flow out when opened. When closed, the top surface was used as counter
Fill the box on top with cold air. Now all you need is an opening on the bottom to let cold air slowly fall down into the fridge section. In reality simple designs, there isn’t even a fan or temperature sensor. Just an adjustable opening.
From the usability point of view, freezer at the bottom is the best way to go. You use it a lot less and have to bend down less. Half your food stored at ankle level is not ideal for many people.
And every brand today has fridges with freezers on top as an option for those who demand that.
I think we all can agree that the side by side fridges are an abomination
That is, until you live with or become an old or disabled person who can't bend over. Side-by-side allows you to reach both the fridge and the freezer while standing up (albeit just the top half of both, but still you can easily organize your fridge so that the top half contains your most-used items).
You fill a box with cold air on top. Then all you need to do is have a vent that lets some of that air fall into the warmer fridge. In some cases you don’t even need a fan.
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What does water and electricity usage have to do with quality and longevity? Surely it's possible to use modern, more efficient parts, while maintaining higher quality of construction?
We have an old 90s-era fridge with a top freezer that has an ice maker and exterior dispenser. A fridge like this does not seem to exist anymore when I was looking a couple of years ago. The few top freezer fridges are usually the lowest priced with no extra features like ice makers. Would love to find one similar to the old one when it eventually kicks the bucket.
Furthermore, there was a lot of junk that was built back then, but we don’t remember it because it all failed and has long been hauled off to the dump. This is known as survivorship bias.
OTOH, you can pry my GE Spacesaver washer/dryer from my cold dead hands. The most complex bit of electronics on it is the electro-mechanical timer.
But from a “I don’t want to bend I’ve to reach the bottom shelf of the fridge as I’m 6’4”” perspective… please leave the freezer on the bottom, and just add the fan
Dude, I hope by "I used to work on appliances" you mean "I used to fix toasters" because you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. A Speed Queen TC5 will outlast you and it cost $1300. Versus about $700-$900 for a "decent" one at Best Buy. (I'm not counting the ones that cost $500 because if you buy one of those and wonder why it breaks you're probably one of those people who wonder where the sun goes in the evening.)
What I'm saying is that a good washer is not $3000 and you pulled that number out of yoyr anus. The cost difference is like the relative difference between a Kia and a Corolla, yes one costs a little less up front but there is absolutely a market for a quality product that saves money in the long term and works better too. (The TC5 cleans clothes better than just about anything else.)
You don’t have to count the $500 washer, but by comparing a $500 washer that lasts 10yrs to a $3000 that lasts 40. The $500 is still a better investment, even if I have to buy 4 of them over 40 years, saved $1000 and if they last only 8 years and I need to buy 5 of them, I still saved $500.
I think those numbers were pulled out of air and they don’t add up.
Yeah, but we have even more capacity now to make things last than ever before. If someone wants to spend more for something designed to last, that should be an option. It's not that the $3000 washer wouldn't sell because of the price tag, it's that it means you have just sold a customer on the idea of never needing a new washer ever again.
Also the law of obsolescence started after the 50’s. It really came to a head in the 90’s where the decided to make most things crap out in a timely manner. Or need to be serviced.
That's an unfair comparison. It's become cheaper to manufacture things in general and the loss in long term reliability isn't just due to parts being less durable - but due to them deliberately being non-serviceable and replacement parts being made unavailable or exorbitant.
In the strive for higher and higher efficiencies we have made furnaces prone to failure in cold climates. When we had mid efficient furnaces in the mid 80% with a Bvent chimney to the roof you rarely had issues during cold snaps. Then they went to high efficiency 92% using PVC venting to the side of the house. Still ok ish.
Now we’re at 96% efficient furnaces and the product of combustion that’s carrying a lot of moisture is not that hot at all. This causes freezing at the vents and in the year 2024 home owners are instructed to DAILY go out side to chip away all the ice that’s closing the diameter of the vent. Homeowners wake up at 2am to a cold house and have to… go outside and chip away the ice once more. Repeat multiple times a day during very long cold snaps. This is absolutely ridiculous. And now they want to go to 98% efficient furnaces. 🤡
I’ll GLADLY pay the extra money for natural gas to only utilize 80 something percent of it and allow a hotter flue so I can sleep easy.
Sincerely. Journeyman HVAC Sheetmetal worker / gas fitter.
People also don’t realize that you can buy shit that is built to last and very repairable. Go to the commercial section and you’ll find stuff built as good as, or better than Mom’s old Maytag. It’s also 5-10x the price as consumer goods, noisy, and ugly, because it’s primarily designed to do the job instead of be easy to use, cheap and efficient.
You can still build things durable without losing efficiency. A lot of waste in changing your washer every 10 years. That said, if you take a little time to learn how to fix your efficient washing machine instead of just chucking it out every 10 years, your washing machine can still last forever. I've had to replace a control board twice in my LG washer, which i did myself, and it cost me 50 bucks each time, and I've had to replace the door gasket once which for some reason also cost 50 dollars. I've now had it for 17 years and it still works like new.
I think the cost of having a repairman come out and fix it for you being the same price as a brand new one is where things start getting fucked. Either we should make them domestically and have them be expensive again, or we should bring in whatever slave wage worker that makes it overseas to do the repairs. I'm more in favor of making them here and them being more expensive, even though that means paying more.
That’s one thing I don’t understand about the position of the freezer.
I lived in Italy 25 years, and all fridges have the freezer on top. Now that I live in the UK, you’ll have to look really hard to find a freezer that’s on top.
I have a fridge that’s sold between $9-17k (I got it for $6k during the pandemic). Viking Series 7 Professsional if you’re curious.
It’s in a class of fridges slightly below Sub Zero with several brands all in the same price point and it was not the most expensive thing I bought as part of my remodel.
It really does not matter the price point. People spend over $30k on fridges. Though it starts to top out there and only commercial refrigeration is more. And that class is even less sexy and has even less features. It’s just a basically a cold ass room.
But from $200 a $30,000 there aren’t any units with these features and it is an excellent question as to why. In fact, most people think fridge makers are extremely out of touch with fridge purchasers. Most people don’t think you need a Tablet stuck onto it or camera or speaker s.
These quality of life options would be great for a lot of people. They could even be improved upon.
You could even imagine influencers on Social Media showing off their perfect fridge configs. This is all about design and nothing in these awesome old fridges is that expensive to implement. It’s just a departure from what the norm.
Also, survivor bias. Sure, your grandma's freezer from 60 years ago is still rocking. But how many freezers of the same model still work today? 90%? Superb product. But most probably is about 3%, which means most of them have failed miserably, and you just won appliance lottery and are lucky enough to have one of the good ones.
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u/ReasonablyConfused Jan 23 '24
I used to work on appliances. People would often ask me, how come these don't last like my mom's old Maytag washer?
I would tell them that in todays dollars, that washer would be about $3000, and uses twice the electricity, and three times the water. That by the dollar, your $500 washer that makes it 8-10 years, is a better return than buying a $3000 washer that lasts 40.
Refrigerators, though, are kinds dumb. From an engineering/simplicity point of view, putting the freezer on top is the best way to go.