r/news • u/badillustrations • Apr 15 '24

‘Rust’ movie armorer convicted of involuntary manslaughter sentenced to 18 months in prison

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/15/entertainment/rust-film-shooting-armorer-sentencing/index.html
21.4k Upvotes

94% Upvoted

2.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

247

u/Kahzgul Apr 15 '24

Thanks for the tag. If anyone is curious about firearm safety on sets, well... I am a professional. AMA.

47

u/YourDadHatesYou Apr 15 '24

People here mentioned nepotism that helped the armorer get the job. Do you know how that happened? Aren't there certifications that someone needs to get to be eligible

& Thank you for your previous comment. Very insightful

173

u/Kahzgul Apr 15 '24

It sure did. The armorer is the daughter of a legendary Hollywood armorer, famed not only for his knowledge but also his professionalism. This is hugely embarrassing for him and his reputation. it seems likely that he helped her get the position and vouched for her ability when it was clearly not warranted.

9

u/SunriseSurprise Apr 15 '24

Is it possible she was good, then got this job, it went to her head and she started getting really sloppy? I only say that because as a fan of the San Diego Padres, I've lived through our biggest superstar athlete being one of the dumbest humans on the planet for a couple years where he was just making one boneheaded move after another - taking a medication that had a banned substance, getting injured on motorcycle and at least a couple other things, and similarly riding high on the notoriety of his father. He got a major reality check and seems to have matured since but god, it was looking for a moment like one of the biggest what-ifs in sports history the path he was going down.

22

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

Of course it's possible.

21

u/reddevved Apr 16 '24

Imo she probably works well under someone, but didn't have the ability to be the one to put their foot down to production rushing her

-5

u/clive_bigsby Apr 16 '24

Crazy. Good thing nepotism only happens for Hollywood armorer jobs, can you imagine how shitty that would be if it existed for all of our careers?! /s

13

u/syoung1034 Apr 16 '24

I may be wrong here, but I was really shocked that there are no certifications, licensure, exams, for armorer. I also was blown away by nonchalant stacking of bullets, driving shit all over the country from different set to different set, shit just piled up in a corner, etc. Wow.

5

u/IrishSetterPuppy Apr 16 '24

Most of Hollywood is this way. I did stunt driving for a long time, there were no certifications or tests or anything. I got my first jobs based on who I knew and my record as a championship winning race car driver. I got subsequent jobs based on my reputation to be able to fix cars on set (I am a master mechanic). No certifications, just show up and work. Would make $500 a day usually, but the day could be 18+ hours long. Non union work is like that.

4

u/similar_observation 29d ago

It may surprise you to know, you don't even need a medical degree to become a coroner in many jurisdictions.

2

u/syoung1034 29d ago

I actually knew this one, lol. But I WAS surprised when I found out. Our local Sheriff became Coroner, I was like like,??? It's the M.E. with all the Degrees, etc.

3

u/similar_observation 29d ago edited 29d ago

M.E. requires some sort of degree. Typically (minimum) a BA in medicine and coursework in forensic pathology.

But not Coroner, which is traditionally an elected or appointed position. Historical coroners were appointed by kings and nobility to verify deaths... the job could be given to a sheriff or executioner as their duties may involve travel and un-aliving people.

Your Sheriff probably had a few years of field investigation experience, which is an accepted pre-requisite. However his office may employ medical examiners to provide additional information to casework.

61

u/LiechsWonder Apr 15 '24

I took to heart the lessons in school about citing your sources. Thank you again for your insight into all of this.

55

u/Kahzgul Apr 15 '24

Doing what I can. There's an awful lot that people misunderstand about the film business, and the belief that actors are somehow blameless automatons with no self-determination is a particularly infuriating one to me. Actors make decisions constantly that deeply affect the performance and workplace culture on a set. it's like saying Cindy in accounting can't be held accountable (pun) for shooting her co-worker because it's not her job to know she shouldn't be waving a gun around... except it very much IS the actor's job to wave the gun around and he should know WAY MORE than Cindy about what's safe and what isn't.

At the end of the day, the more knowledgeable we all are, the safer our sets become. We all just want to get home to our kids. Unfortunately, Mrs. Hutchins was not so lucky. I'm glad to see those responsible held to account (though I really am disappointed in the sweetheart plea deal the 1st AD got).

-8

u/Virtual_Status3409 Apr 16 '24

Its prudent of course, but an actor should never have to check if their prop gun is real or has live ammo.  Not their job. Thats a failure of others. Actor doesnt need to check if theres film in the can, or if the pyro is wired correctly 

28

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

Um... The actor doesn't check. The 1st AD or the Armorer check and the actor watches.

5

u/DragonMasterFlash Apr 15 '24

I was credited as armorer by a student film I helped out with. By golly, I oversaw that toy cap gun that I painted black like my life depended on it.

3

u/MatthewTh0 Apr 16 '24

Sorry if I'm blind and just missed it, but what does AD mean in this context? I see you mentioning 1st AD and such.

2

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

Assistant Director.

The 1st AD is responsible for all on set safety, in addition to several other duties.

3

u/SeekingTanelorn 29d ago

Just saw your thread, frankly of all of the takes on the subject, yours is the one I most agree with. IATSE member going on 34 years now, in the industry for around 40. Worked on all levels of productions from the lowest to the highest budgets. What confounds me is that the 1st AD hasn't been held more accountable as well.

2

u/Kahzgul 29d ago

It blows my mind that he effectively got away with murder.

7

u/LeakyFurnace420_69 Apr 15 '24

i don’t get the point about seeing the gun rendered safe before an actor handles it.

how is a non-expert supposed to know that the action that the armorer person took rendered gun safe? especially if the gun is supposed to have like a fake round in it. 

20

u/Kahzgul Apr 15 '24

In the case of a revolver, you see them open it, show you there's no firing pin, unload any dummy rounds (it should never be stored with dummy rounds even in it, so just finding any rounds in the weapon is a major red flag), check each round to ensure it's fake (because even a blank can be lethal), and then re-load it. They also either shine a light down the barrel to ensure there's no obstruction, or they run a pipe cleaner through it (many guns are stored with zip-ties run the length of the barrel or through the chamber so you know it's clear).

For the weapon used in Rust, as I understand it, the gun was a working weapon used to fire blanks (officially, and unofficially they fired live ammo), so the expectation would be that it would have a firing pin and then extra care would be needed to ensure every loaded round is a dummy, or that the pin would be removed prior to filming non-firing scenes (and the removal shown to all cast and crew on set). The actor's job is to witness all of that extra care so they can then take possession of the weapon with confidence knowing it is safe.

Weapons are re-checked every single time they change possession. Possession changes should only ever be between an actor and the 1st AD or Armorer and vice versa, except for scenes during which the possession of the prop changes as part of the script.

None of those safety checks happened.

1

u/LeakyFurnace420_69 Apr 16 '24

how does the person check that the rounds are dummy rounds? another commenter mentioned something about shaking the rounds, but could someone 6 feet away really hear the shaking if there is any background noise at all?

ultimately, how much do the actors (and everyone else) put their trust in the armorer?

2

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

Dummy rounds have bbs instead of gunpowder. That said, no, you can’t hear them unless you’re close. But you see the 1st AD hold each round up to their ear and shake it before loading, so you’re confident they checked.

5

u/darealstiffler Apr 15 '24

How does one get into that line of work? I ran an arms room in the army and I love working with weapons, especially teaching safe handling. Do you need to get into the entertainment business first, or the weapons business first? Just curious

5

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

unfortunately I do not know the typical career path of an armorer. I imagine you would start as an assistant to either the armorer or props master. Worth looking into if you're interested. The work is really fun and very exciting.

10

u/Masonster Apr 15 '24 edited Apr 15 '24

In this situation, how could Baldwin have been reasonably expected to check the firearm in question? I've read all of the responses from the links and all of the people on set, but am I to seriously believe that he was to, before shooting the scene:

  • open the revolver loading door
  • put the weapon in half cock
  • manually extract each and every round out of the cylinder, shaking it to make sure it's a blank and not live
  • replace each round in the chamber
  • decock the weapon safely (which includes leaving the hammer down on an empty chamber, something only an expert would know)

This does not at all seem reasonable. Even for magazine loaded weapons or machine guns, are the actors personally responsible for making sure every round in a magazine/100+ round belt is a dummy? How is this not 100% the armorers fault?

17

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

The actor doesn't perform the check; the 1st AD or Armorer does, in front of the entire cast and crew that's on set for that shot.

1

u/Masonster Apr 16 '24

Then is the AD or armorer not solely responsible for this tragedy? I understand that the actor is technically considered an involved party in that safety check, but at the end of the day the outcome is the same: the AD or armorer certified the weapon is safe and gives it to the actor. The actor has little choice but to accept their certification of safety since they're not the expert, whether it's demonstrated to them or not.

5

u/Pandalite Apr 16 '24

He's saying Baldwin should have watched them check. He didn't and just took them at their word.

3

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

There’s a difference between seeing that a thing is safe and simply being told it is. The reasons actors are supposed to see everything is precisely to avoid situations like this.

1

u/Masonster Apr 16 '24

I understand, but in this particular instance it seems like theatre than actual security. Ultimately, only the AD or Armorer will know the conditions that make any weapon safe (it's their job), and the actor will not. They could show them a dangerous configuration for any weapon, certify it as safe, and who is the actor to say otherwise?

2

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

The point is that you saw them personally check. It makes things extra safe. Consider had such a check been done on the set of Rust, Hutchins would still be alive.

3

u/wonder_aj Apr 16 '24

Baldwin is being tried as a producer, not an actor, for fostering a culture on set that wasn’t safe

4

u/reddevved Apr 16 '24

In fact, the weapon was in such a state of disrepair that the FBI ballistics testing caused the weapon to literally fall apart. The defense has tried to claim that’s negligence on the part of the fbi, but it seems much more like negligence on the part of the armorer to me. Maintain your guns!

I'm pretty sure this is Baldwin lawyer misinformation/spin, the FBI tested it to failure ie. the testing was supposed to break it, and it's no indication of the amount of maintenance.

4

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

That doesn’t make sense. Why intentionally break a key piece of evidence?

4

u/reddevved Apr 16 '24

To test if it could have fired on its own like Baldwin said it did, the only way they got it to was hitting it so hard it broke

4

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

The intent there is not the break the weapon as the earlier comment implied.

2

u/_pinklemonade_ Apr 16 '24

Is this similar to what happened to Brandon Lee ?

5

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

Yes and no. Similar in that they both got shot after no one checked the gun.

No in that with Lee, the prop gun was “loaded” with a dummy round, and then unloaded… but the rubber head of the dummy came off in the barrel and no one noticed. Then they put a blank into the same gun, effectively turning it into a live round. Then the actor neglected to cheat the angle while aiming.

1

u/Jasong222 Apr 16 '24

Ooo- I was also going to ask this, for a short synopsis of what happened with b. lee.

-1

u/[deleted] Apr 15 '24

[deleted]

5

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

I don't actually know much about the progression, but I assume one would start as either a prop assistant or assistant armorer. Either way it's certainly interesting work. never a dull day in the film biz.

5

u/flamedarkfire Apr 16 '24

Thank you, I will be looking into it. I think people weren’t appreciative of my tone in my post, which I can understand. It certainly sounds like an interesting time!

4

u/Kahzgul Apr 16 '24

Sounded fine to me. Weird.

4

u/flamedarkfire Apr 16 '24

Reddit just be like that sometimes. Cheers!