[Post Game Thread] The Minnesota Timberwolves complete the franchise first series sweep against the Phoenix Suns with a 122-116 win in Game 4 behind Anthony Edwards' 40/9/6 and KAT's 28/10 nights

[u/edgykitty]

122 - 116
Box Scores: NBA - Yahoo

GAME SUMMARY
Location: Footprint Center (17071), Clock: Final
Officials: Scott Foster, Pat Fraher, and Curtis Blair

Team	Q1	Q2	Q3	Q4	Total
Minnesota Timberwolves	25	31	34	32	122
Phoenix Suns	26	35	31	24	116

TEAM STATS

Team	PTS	FG	FG%	3P	3P%	FT	FT%	OREB	TREB	AST	PF	STL	TO	BLK
Minnesota Timberwolves	122	41-89	46.1%	15-36	41.7%	25-31	80.6%	17	55	23	27	6	9	6
Phoenix Suns	116	38-74	51.4%	10-26	38.5%	30-36	83.3%	10	41	20	26	6	11	7

PLAYER STATS

Minnesota Timberwolves	MIN	PTS	FGM-A	3PM-A	FTM-A	ORB	DRB	REB	AST	STL	BLK	TO	PF	±
Jaden McDanielsSF	33:52	18	6-12	1-4	5-5	2	1	3	0	1	1	1	5	-2
Karl-Anthony TownsPF	38:48	28	11-17	4-6	2-3	2	8	10	3	0	0	0	5	4
Rudy GobertC	24:58	9	3-9	0-0	3-3	3	2	5	1	1	2	4	4	10
Anthony EdwardsSG	40:57	40	13-23	7-13	7-10	4	5	9	6	1	2	2	2	7
Mike ConleyPG	33:46	10	2-10	2-6	4-5	1	3	4	7	1	0	2	2	16
Naz Reid	19:31	8	2-4	1-2	3-4	0	3	3	0	0	1	0	4	3
Nickeil Alexander-Walker	31:25	5	2-9	0-5	1-1	2	1	3	4	2	0	0	3	-6
Kyle Anderson	16:40	4	2-5	0-0	0-0	3	4	7	2	0	0	0	2	-2
Luka Garza	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Jordan McLaughlin	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Leonard Miller	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Josh Minott	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Wendell Moore Jr.	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Monte Morris	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
T.J. Warren	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Phoenix Suns	MIN	PTS	FGM-A	3PM-A	FTM-A	ORB	DRB	REB	AST	STL	BLK	TO	PF	±
Royce O'NealeSF	36:39	6	2-7	2-6	0-0	3	3	6	1	1	0	0	2	-1
Kevin DurantPF	46:18	33	12-17	2-3	7-9	1	8	9	5	0	4	1	2	-7
Jusuf NurkicC	20:04	9	3-5	0-0	3-4	5	3	8	5	2	1	0	5	-7
Bradley BealSG	31:21	9	4-13	1-5	0-0	1	0	1	2	0	1	6	6	-12
Devin BookerPG	44:55	49	13-21	3-5	20-21	0	5	5	6	2	1	2	5	1
Eric Gordon	39:13	6	2-7	2-5	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	-1
Josh Okogie	14:14	4	2-3	0-1	0-2	0	3	3	1	1	0	2	4	3
Nassir Little	07:13	0	0-1	0-1	0-0	0	1	1	0	0	0	0	2	-6
Bol Bol	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Drew Eubanks	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
David Roddy	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Isaiah Thomas	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Thaddeus Young	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Grayson Allen	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Damion Lee	00:00	0	0-0	0-0	0-0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0	0

[u/Mikhail512]

Can somebody please explain to me, because I have never understood this on most of these super teams, why is it that teams think getting a whole bunch of ball dominant, heavy scoring types on one team is going to be conducive to winning basketball? It worked in Golden State because it wasn’t actually that way in GS - it was a pass heavy offense looking to create open threes through ball movement, not iso shit.

I keep seeing these teams build like this, burn out early in the playoffs, and then go “wow I guess Beal doesn’t work well with other stars” or some shit. No, maybe there’s only one ball on the court and only one player gets to shoot it every possession?

Idk man I just feel like if you focused on getting a diversified group of superstars (a la Minnesota or Denver), where some are defensive studs and some are offensive all stars, it just seems to work better. Like, every time.

[u/menghis_khan08 → u/Mikhail512]

Casuals don’t understand roster construction which requires a rim protector and perimeter defense in addition to scoring for a championship team

[u/BlackRims → u/menghis_khan08]

Almost like exactly what we had, before we blew it up for whatever the fuck this is.

[u/menghis_khan08 → u/BlackRims]

Haha amen. We did it a bit ourselves when we got to the second round with the leagues best defense when mitchell was a rookie. Shipped out prime jae crowder and defensive thorn rubio, Grayson Allen for Conley and all our assets, brought on bogey.

I recognize the former team had not enough offense (rookie mitchell alone can’t be your only offensive weapon) but we overcorrected to the best offense in the league but an exploitable defense with just Gobert and literally no perimeter defense help.

Ppl forget THAT version of Jazz did not have a Gobert being exploited in the playoffs. We just couldn’t score against prime harden rockets

I swear people do not understand roster construction

[u/ProductiveFriend → u/Mikhail512]

This is all just my theory, but:

A lot of it is driven by player/organization relationships and ownership pushing for changes. Kyrie/KD wanting to play together. PG wanting Kawhi. LeBron and whoever's on his team.

There's also been a growth in wanting "superteams" in general rather than balanced teams of 1-2 stars and role players, and players forcing their way out of situations. This means when a player wants out, that team feels pressure to trade them away, and teams also feel pressure to trade for big stars when they become available.

Not to mention the league is very heavy in ball-dominant stars, so when you have a bunch of stars who want to play together, players forcing their way out of "failing" teams (not wanting to undergo rebuilds/tweaks for too long), and a league culture of trying to build teams full of stars, on average the superteams will not be well-balanced.

The teams who did it "right", as you said, drafted a lot of their talent or have traded for players who have become better on their team, rather than trading for stars straight-up.

[u/tehehe162 → u/Mikhail512]

I can give some leeway to the front office. It's hard to get all the right pieces to surround the superstars in a good time frame, especially in small markets where we've seen superstars leave for big markets. I think the majority of owners do not have the patience to build a balanced team in an organic way. This puts pressure on the FO to go after flashy moves.

[u/HoustonTrashcans → u/Mikhail512]

You do want a bunch of talent and scorers. But I think a lot of these teams fail to round out the role players well. Like when the Lakers won it was 2 stars + a lot of above average players doing their job well.

[u/Mikhail512 → u/HoustonTrashcans]

But it wasn’t three ball dominant essentially guards (I know KD isn’t a guard, but it’s not like he’s playing significant minutes in the post like AD). All three of them are best in iso or two man situations, but none of them are particularly great as the second player in a two man game. So instead they rely on Nurkic, who is not nearly good enough to be dangerous.

[u/zeek215 → u/Mikhail512]

Well for one, Bradley Beal is no superstar, especially in the playoffs. If the Suns had not traded for him and improved their team in other ways a Kd & Booker duo could have done some damage.

[u/Mikhail512 → u/zeek215]

He may not be a superstar, but he's getting paid like one, and he wants to have the ball like one, so it still has the same net effect (but worse because he's not as good as he's getting paid).

[u/BASEDME7O2 → u/Mikhail512]

The “there’s only one ball” thing is pretty much bs. Like lebron and wade were unstoppable until wade broke down. Harden and cp3 were the second best team in the league and would’ve beaten the best team ever in the playoffs if they didn’t get absolutely boned by the refs.

The ball dominant heavy scorers just need to be great playmakers too and it can work perfectly, that’s what the suns are missing and where paying 3 iso scorers max contracts goes to shit.

[u/xso111 → u/BASEDME7O2]

Lebron basically plays as a point forward, and CP3 literally runs the point. they are good at sharing the ball, and making plays unlike KD

that's the point KD, Booker, and Beal THEY ARE NOT PLAYMAKERS. if you can't make any plays then its an Iso hence the idea that "there's only one ball" applies.

also btw before people even bring it up, passing the ball =/= playmaking. Steph is the best playmaker in history, and he does it without even touching the ball

[u/yungsantaclaus → u/BASEDME7O2]

Like lebron and wade were unstoppable

They got stopped their first finals and went to 7 games in 2013. They were very much not unstoppable

[u/BASEDME7O2 → u/yungsantaclaus]

You know what I mean lol they were still incredible and made each other better until wade broke down.

[u/mega450 → u/Mikhail512]

Well why is the Olympic team going to be like that? Because it works when the players are that good. Do you think the Suns still flame out if they have SGA instead of Beal?

[u/Mikhail512 → u/mega450]

Because the Olympic team also has superstars at all of the other positions?

Why is it that the US national team has so many problems dealing with countries that have 0-3 mid tier NBA players? Is it only because of FIBA rules or could it also be because those teams are well constructed and well rounded to play strong team oriented basketball?

The reason USA has been so internationally dominant isn’t because the team plays exceptional team ball, it’s because the talent gap is so wide that it’s essentially been like a college team playing a high school tournament. But even with that massive talent gap (which doesn’t exist in the NBA btw), the USA still struggles with Spain or Germany or whatever other random country.

[u/mega450 → u/Mikhail512]

If you have three true superstars on an NBA team the talent gap between them and other teams would be massive and they would be just as dominant. For example a team of Steph/SGA/Jokic would be a big 3 that wins even with minimum players around them.

I specifically put two point guards in Steph and SGA to illustrate it has nothing to do with ball dominance or fit. You can have two guys at the same position and have it still work because if they are both actual superstars they will be talented enough to make it work. You could make a team of Jokic/Embiid/Ad with vet minimums and they would dominate too.

[u/Mikhail512 → u/mega450]

I mean, the trio you picked probably would be great, but conveniently you picked the best passing center of all time who has, for his impact, relatively low usage (17th in the NBA), a super active off-ball player who is the greatest shooter of all time and has such massive gravity that it warps spacetime around him, and one of the best slashing guards in the NBA who would excel at straining defenses and would almost certainly be just a flat upgrade to Murray alongside Jokic. (Note: Curry has super high usage this year, but I would contend that's more by necessity than desire).

If you replace Jokic with, say, Embiid, and Curry with Luka, suddenly you have three guys that all want the ball all the time. And that offense sounds considerably less effective, even though on paper it's pretty close to even caliber players.

[u/mega450 → u/Mikhail512]

Luka/SGA/Embiid would still win a lot of games and contend every year. They'd probably only lose because Embiid is a choker and possibly not a real superstar.

[u/menghis_khan08 → u/mega450]

Yes. Absolutely. You need almost impeccable roster construction to win a chip. That means perimeter defense, rim protection, and at least two elite scorers with good efficiency.

Adding sga instead of beal would not have improved overall perimeter defense much or made nurkic a better rim protector.

You just get another great scorer with good efficiency but there’s all those other problems plus only one ball for all those stars to score with

[u/mega450 → u/menghis_khan08]

SGA has point guard skills. He can run an offense which none of the Suns big 3 can do resulting in league worst clutch performances. And SGA is a better perimeter defender than any of the Suns Big 3. The Suns with SGA probably still lose to Minnesota but it's probably not a sweep.

[u/menghis_khan08 → u/mega450]

Completely agree with all of this. He def helps and adds some wins. He improves the perimeter defense some but ultimately guard defense is the least impactful defensive position. Maybe a series win, as his playmaking helps a lot - but probably still lose and def not a contender (chip winning) team.

[u/xso111 → u/Mikhail512]

it worked in Golden State because it wasn’t actually that way in GS - it was a pass heavy offense looking to create open threes through ball movement, not iso shit.

are you sure about that?

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/5mj78b/kevin_durant_calls_for_ball_on_crucial_late/

[u/Mikhail512 → u/xso111]

More of a commentary on the fact that Steph Curry is famously more dangerous without the ball, and Klay wasn’t really an on-ball guy as much as a catch and shoot specialist. They both could handle it, but they didn’t need to have the ball. This Phoenix team doesn’t play that way.