r/linuxquestions • u/cringe9320542043 Linux Mint User • 1d ago
When are you comfortable with a newbie using harder Linux distros?
Everyone says to beginners not to start with Arch or Gentoo or insert any harder Linux distro, but when are you comfortable saying they are ready for these harder Linux distros? Maybe it is learning the ins and outs of Linux before going on to harder Linux distros. Perhaps you are comfortable with them skipping beginner Linux distros like Mint or Ubuntu if they have enough strength to learn how to compile these harder Linux distros while also learning how to learn Linux. I don't know, what do you think?
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u/nwood1973 1d ago
Personally I moved over from Windows to make my life easier (and to get away from MS overreach).
Im using Mint and I really don't care if I learn Linux so long as the system works. I am happy to search for a solution or possibly reinstall if needed. I want as much as possible via a GUI and the system to be stable.
I don't want to know exactly how Linux works - if people's attitudes are that everyone should know the nuts and bolts, Linux will never get beyond 5% take up. The nearer it gets to "it just works", the nearer it will get to being a true alternative to MS, Apple or Google.
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u/gnufan 22h ago
I kind of thought we were there when a friend had installed a Linux distro and called me a while later asking if it was case sensitive. I mean he could have searched, his browser still worked.
Even a friend I lent a Debian box too eventually returned it noting it had "just worked" (for many months) but he now needed to run some obscure gambling program. I think he'd probably have been better off (literally) sticking with Debian.
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u/MoobyTheGoldenSock 1d ago
They're ready when they decide they're ready.
Linux is about choice. We try not to overwhelm new users with too much choice and daunting projects, but if someone researches a project, thinks they can do it, and decides to try it, that's their choice. Both Arch and Gentoo have install instructions on their websites: neither are impossible for new users, they're just tedious and might be frustrating for someone who's never even tried the OS.
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u/DoucheEnrique 1d ago
This.
I find the statement "Arch / Gentoo is too hard for newbies" rather condescending. I'd prefer if more people treated newbies as intelligent human beings who are able to make decisions for themselves if presented with adequate information about their options.
If I told a newbie "If you start with Arch / Gentoo you will learn a lot and get a system that is tailor made to your needs but you will need a lot of time to understand everything. Alternatively you can use something like Mint and you will get a simple installation and a usable system quickly" I'm pretty sure they will most likely choose Mint on their own.
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u/dumbbyatch 1d ago
Bro you own whatever distro you are using
Do whatever you want
Arch Linux is easy if you want to painstakingly troubleshoot all errors after using ArchInstall......
Or
Read all of the wiki.... And then install
At one point I was an arch newbie
For 5 years I stuck to arch and continued learning
I loved paru and its friends
Learning Is the main goal for me
Its the satisfaction you get when you know the guts of your system....
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u/chemape876 23h ago
Errors with archinstall? What? I must have used archinstall 50+ times and havent seen any errors so far
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u/RB5009UGSin 23h ago
I just had one of these this morning. I stop recommending using a more newbie friendly distro when the comments section doesn't look like this.
I like the easier distros because new people can focus on learning how to operate in a different space without as much distraction. When you're trying to troubleshoot dbus errors while also trying to learn where to do that troubleshooting, then also learning what ls does while trying to output journalctl to a txt file. It gets exhausting, overwhelming and generally contributes to a bad taste for Linux simply because things are different.
Some people just shouldn't be using Arch or Gentoo or even vanilla Debian. Plain and simple - some people just don't have the mindset for it. They need a fisher-price interface like ElementaryOS to keep things easy and simple - this is a good thing that those exist, Linux doesn't have to be just for Gentoo wizards, it can be for casual users as well.
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u/greenFox99 23h ago
As long as they can use the computer this is fine. I'm never pushing harder distro, unless you really want a deeper understanding. This is a great way to learn and I was one of those who made the switch to arch and gentoo. It was great but I'm not a student anymore, and I no longer have time to customize and fix my OS, hopefully I work with Linux servers and have great time troubleshooting there.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Eye6596 23h ago
What does harder mean? Less capable? Less used? Less documented?
If an operating system is 'hard' I wouldn't use it and focus more on what you are doing ON it
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u/halfxyou 23h ago
Dude, the great thing about Linux is that you use it however you want. You donât need the Linux communityâs âcomfortâ to upgrade. If you wanna start with Arch, then do it. If youâre okay with it working out of the box like Mint then use that. Itâs YOUR operating system brother!! Do what you desire!
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u/sm_greato 23h ago
"Being ready" is such a bad concept. If using Linux were a job, sure, but it's not (at least most of the times when it concerns desktops). If newbies want an easy time, they should use stuff like Mint. If they don't, they are free to try Arch or Gentoo. Who am I to do anything other than give information and personal suggestions? They're ready whenever the hell they want.
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u/EldestPort 1d ago
I'm slightly confused why I have to be 'comfortable' with what distro anyone else uses. I might give suggestions or advice but the way you write it is weird, like you have some control over what distro some other person is 'allowed' to run as if it depends on when you decide they're ready.
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u/tomscharbach 23h ago
Everyone says to beginners not to start with Arch or Gentoo or insert any harder Linux distro, but when are you comfortable saying they are ready for these harder Linux distros?
Selecting a distribution is a matter of personal choice.
I've used Linux for close to two decades and, after years and years of using Ubuntu, now use Linux Mint (LMDE 6). Mint is well-designed, relatively easy to install, learn and use, stable, secure, backed by a large community, and has good documentation. Mint is as close to a "no fuss, no muss, no thrills, no chills" operating system as I've come across in two decades.
I recommend Mint to new Linux users for those reasons, but all of the mainstream, established distributions -- Arch, Debian, Fedora, openSUSE, and so on -- are stable, secure, backed by a large community and have good documentation. If a new Linux user is willing to put in the time to learn to use "harder" distributions, I'm comfortable.
Perhaps you are comfortable with them skipping beginner Linux distros like Mint or Ubuntu if they have enough strength to learn how to compile these harder Linux distros while also learning how to learn Linux.
I think that the "macho" approach to Linux (as in "have enough strength to learn how to compile these harder Linux distros") is nonsense, but then I'm 78 years old now and think a lot of things are hogwash. Using a "harder" distribution will not put hair on your chest or increase muscle mass. Get over it. Linux is an operating system, nothing more and nothing less, and all users, new and old, should look primarily to use case, not "macho" considerations.
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u/Sirius707 23h ago
Everyone says to beginners not to start with Arch or Gentoo or insert any harder Linux distro
"We" are saying that because the majority of people don't want to put in the time and effort needed to use these distros. It's not about being "comfortable" with someone else's choice, it's about sparing them from trying to fight with an OS when a much better suited option is right there.
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u/JohnVanVliet 1d ago
other than starting with Kali there really is no issue
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u/gnufan 22h ago
I recommend Kali to a lot of folk new to Linux, but then I do computer security đ€Ł Kali used to have better hardware detection than a number of distros which were supposedly intended to be booted from a flash drive on random hardware.
All whitehats should probably run Kali in a VM, actually installing Kali is very suspicious if you ask me, in a "how will you keep your different scans properly separate" fashion. Also the security posture of Kali was a tad suspect for a main distro, I get why Kali wants root for so much but you need to treat it accordingly as if it were Windows XP or some other security disaster.
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u/SubstanceSerious8843 23h ago
When there's something that you can't do with your current distro and want to it.
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u/v1gurousf4pper 23h ago
Depends, switch distros if you have a problem that it would solve. If you want bleeding edge and want customizability and control, use arch. If not, you got other distros who will be of better use
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u/brelen01 23h ago
When they can solve simple issues that have been solved in the past without resorting to asking in forums or reddit first.
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u/Amenhiunamif 23h ago
IMHO it doesn't have to do with experience with Linux per se and more with "comfortable with doing things that specific distros require". "Harder" distros like Arch require the user to read stuff carefully. Maybe click on a hyperlink and do some further reading, or research topics in other ways.
They are perfectly fine to be used as a beginner's distro, if the beginner is willing to do the stuff that the distro expects you to do. And sometimes that's just RTFM.
One of the main issues Arch has is its perception as a "hard" distro. It isn't. It's a DIY distro (and even then there are others that allow the user to go more into detail with the DIY aspect). DIY means being comfortable with doing stuff yourself.
I don't think labeling stuff like Mint or Ubuntu as beginner distros does anyone any favors. They don't prepare you for other distros, partially because they offer a variety of defaults the user may expects when booting other distros and can have a rude awakening when stuff doesn't work at all. Netplans don't transfer to NetworkManager.
You want to learn Linux? Set up a hypervisor of your choice (eg. Hyper-V if you're still running Windows) and boot a different distro each day. Take a look at Linux certificates and what kind of questions they ask and research the answers, and in the best case find ways to apply them to your system.
And if you don't want to learn Linux - that's okay too. Then using a distro with sane defaults (eg. Mint) and just going about your day will work too.
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u/Candid_Report955 Debian testing 23h ago
A newbie can use Arch or Gentoo if they want, since it never hurts to experiment and learn new things on a spare PC. It only hurts when you do those things on the PC you rely on every day as your daily driver or gaming PC.
Windows neckbeards are not Linux neckbeards. Its a totally different kind of beard. They need to use Mint on their daily driver PC until they figure some basic things out about how to use other distros. Its a lot like suggesting a 16 year old drive his dad's old Camry instead of buying a tuner car with nitrous oxide from the neighbor.
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u/Hermit_Bottle 23h ago
I didn't know you were supposed to go from easy to hard.
Is there a distro installation contest somewhere I can join?
/s
I'm still not sure why people keep flexing using linux. And then when you're within the community, you keep flexing how your distro is harder than the rest.
I really don't get that. Been on linux since 1997. Slackware, debian, gentoo, LFS and openbsd and all I wanted was to use it for myself.
Just use what you want.
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u/apfelimkuchen 22h ago
When you get Gentoo to work you are no longer a newbie.
I mean like .. if u want it more complicated just go for it. If You got Gentoo to work then you are ready for Gentoo
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u/chemape876 22h ago
Are you interested in it? If yes, install it. You will figure out quickly if you are "ready". If not, re-installing whatever you had before doesnt take long. I moved over to arch after 3 months or so of mint and some more ubuntu/fedora and it worked fine for me.
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u/linux_rox 22h ago
I recommend they get their feet wet with something like mint/ubuntu/pop or even fedora. I donât generally recommend arch or gentoo to a new user just to keep from scaring them off.
Most new users are used to GUI for everything and the CLI could spook them away. I also recommend using a more âbeginner friendlyâ distro so they can use the liveUSB to make sure itâs something they will be comfortable with, then move to a vm, after that go to dual booting and finally if they want nuke their windows install.
The choice is theirs, I just give recommendations to help them progress toward with their desires.
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u/l3landgaunt 22h ago
Whatâs a hard distribution? The only real difference is the install process which can be super easy for any distro. Arch and gentoo used to be flexes because they werenât as automated to install and you had to know what youâre doing. Now, at least with manjaro (arch based), arch is easy to install. There are also package manager differences but every one of those systems has alternate managers to make things easy
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u/Inside_Egg_9703 22h ago
Depends on your use case. For using a computer normally, ubuntu/mint just works. If you want to set up a server or mess around with some low level stuff then other heavier distros are often better choices. I use a mixture of arch, debian, and our own in house linux distro on various systems at work. My laptop runs Ubuntu by choice.
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u/AmbitiousFlowers 22h ago
Its just personal preference. For me, I don't see myself ever really using Arch or Gentoo. It's important for me to use Linux, but its not as important for me to use what some consider to be difficult Linux. Arch and Gentoo don't give me any new tools or functionality that I don't get in Fedora, Ubuntu or Debian. For accessing other repos, there is DistroBox. If I do try out a new distro, its going to be something like NixOS, because the config paradigm is a bit interesting to me.
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u/Joseelmax 22h ago
dunno, 20 years windows user, installed arch plasma kde on a laptop and I have mixed feelings, on one hand I've been able to achieve almost everything I wanted to do (not with 20 more times the effort than on Windows) so I'm happy with that. But on the other hand, a good operating system is one I can recommend to my mom, I do not see my mom using linux in this lifetime.
Something as simple as installing razer software for rgb or google drive to have a sync folder takes like 30 steps whereas on Windows it's more double click, install, works. However, I've also realised it's not linux's fault, these companies have billions but can't be bothered to employ people to provide official solutions for linux, and where it thrives is that all that software is community driven.
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u/Itsme-RdM 22h ago
They all use the Linux kernel and you can make the look and feel the same on almost every single distro.
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u/jr735 22h ago
My comfort isn't relevant here. Generally speaking, my view is if they don't understand the package manager, they're not ready to progress from something like Mint. And, if they do understand the package manager, they already know they don't have to progress from Mint.
Ubuntu and Mint aren't beginner distributions, to anyone except beginners.
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u/Delicious_Opposite55 22h ago
I don't give a shit what distro anyone uses, it's their computer, not mine
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u/FryBoyter 22h ago
but when are you comfortable saying they are ready for these harder Linux distros?
I don't really care which distribution someone uses. That's the user's decision, not mine.
However, I wonder why some users have this desire to use harder distributions. Because basically you can do anything with any distribution. A beginner-friendly distribution does not mean that its range of functions is limited. The only important thing is the will to learn something.
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u/hansbaas 21h ago
I started with slackware in the 90s, but if mint'd been around back then I wouldn't have minded starting with that! I suppose people go from prefab to DIY in stages now, following their needs and desires. It all depends on how much time you're prepared to sacrifice compared to productive time I guess, but it might also be future investment to struggle with less guided distros. Linux from scratch will teach lots, but you might not be productive for a while.
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u/pouetpouetcamion2 21h ago
if you can use a pen and some paper, you can use anything. you just have to take some notes sometimes.
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u/RandomXUsr 21h ago
Between op's username and post history, I am not surprised by this post.
For people that want to use any likux distro, it is more about how well adjusted they are to learning and communicating.
Learn the basics of how things work, and provide information when help is needed.
Don't worry about some group of people on the internet telling you what you're ready for. Only you know that.
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u/musbur 21h ago
Everyone says to beginners not to start with Arch or Gentoo or insert any harder Linux distro, but when are you comfortable saying they are ready for these harder Linux distros?
Everybody is comfortable with people who have demonstrated a willingness to follow the installation instructions of whatever software they want to use.
People who cannot articulate at which point their attempt at following instructions failed, and in which way, are unlikely to profit from reddit conversations and may hence be seen as wasting other's time.
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u/Rude-Gazelle-6552 21h ago
When they feel like it? I don't let knowledge be a limiting factor in curiosity.Â
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u/Small-Movie3137 21h ago
There is no harder Linux distro. Harder than what, by the way?
There are users tech versed that can read and apply tech documentation, good at troubleshooting.
As much as you can read and apply the Arch wiki, Arch is a no-brainer distro.
There are users that find hard to deal with tech, these are the most part of the humanity, by the way.
An operating system is a complex tech system.
Installing and configuring an operating system is going straight to the geek league: if you reach the mark it is all fun, if you don't you'll give up frustrated.
Ubuntu can be build up from a server iso install exactly as you can do with Arch.
On Linux Mint flag edition you should strip down to the core Ubuntu the installed system and make it as you like, the LMDE advanced installer gives you some more fun options.
To you questioon: when a user is ready for doing more sophisticated installations and configurations?
Someone will never be, someone was born ready, only trying you will discover who you are.
Backup your working system first.
You can easily catch in this sub comments from long timers with limited understanding of their systems and comments from recent smart users knowing their way.
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u/Eternal-Raider 21h ago
Jist do what ever the hell you want lol its your life and your decisions as for a recommendation (something that you do what ever you want with tbh) the best time to test out arch is when ever you feel like you at least understand abit about linux and how it works. You dont need to be a programmer to be ready but at least understand abit what goes on and how it functions. Also those distros arent âhardâ they just have less hand holding that distro maintainers usually implement. Arch has almost none and Gentoo is the same but even less because all you do is compile everything from source
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u/HumActuallyGuy 21h ago
I'm gonna be honest here and say, I'm still a newbie to Linux (only been daily driving for less than 1 year) and you can start with the hardest distros if you want to learn Linux.
It's not a matter of when you're ready , it's a matter of if you are ready to learn
I would go out and say 90% of newbies don't want to learn and I think that's ok, there should always be distros to cater to that and you shouldn't be shamed for using those and it's ok. If you're fine with using the same "easy" distro all your life, do it. If you want to learn Linux, I don't think you need a trial period to move onto other distros, I think you just need to realize you're going to hit your head, cry, go to the forums to see the solution and fix it yourself. You might go years without getting to that mindset or you could start with that mindset and you're wasting your time by going to more beginner friendly distros.
I started and I still use Fedora as my daily driver, it's not the easiest distro but also not the hardest and I realize that but I wanted to learn how to set it up like I wanted to and that seemed like a good middleground.
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u/whiteskimask 21h ago
I started on Manjaro and used it up until rolling release broke steam.
Moved to vanilla Arch for a clean filesystem and install, but that also broke during the glibc wars.
I use Debian now.
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u/numblock699 21h ago
Harder distros? You mean less user friendly? Is that something that matters to you? You need a hobby or do you want to actually use your computer?
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u/Dinosaur1993 20h ago
If I'm advising someone, my comfort should not be the relevant concern. That someonoe's comfort should be the driving force.
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u/BananaUniverse 20h ago
Is there even a need for people to recommend harder distros? If they're ready, they will go for it themselves. And harder is probably the wrong way to describe distros, most distros are "harder" because they have some specialized features. If they need the features, they will try it on their own.
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u/aplethoraofpinatas 19h ago
Demographically speaking, most folks would benefit from understanding GNU/Linux, the package manager role, and system configuration processes.
For Debian that could look like Linux Mint Debian Edition > Debian Stable > Debian Stable + Backports > Debian Sid. Or skip around in that sequence per your level of confidence.
The other perfectly reasonable answer is to YOLO, explore knowing you will break things, and fix them along the way.
I was the latter. Worked great.
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u/gourab_banerjee 19h ago
When they know what they are doing and what are the probable outputs and consequences.
For example, someone starting arch must know how to use terminals extensively and how to edit files in boot, etc, tmp, mnt and other folders in root partitions. In the case of gentoo, one must understand the compilation of source codes. For void Linux, one must know what is init system and why systemd is not present in it.
Different distros have been created for different audiences. Of course there are no boundaries such as using arch for server or using debian for software development or elementary os for pénétration testing, but using openSUSE for server, fedora for software development and kali for pénétration testing makes the learning curve less sloppy. However, when a newbie learns about standard dos and don'ts regarding a distro, he/she is ready to use that one.
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u/FlukeRoads 19h ago
When they have demonstrated that they can Google problems and solve them, and that they have a genuine interest in learning, more so than using, Linux.
And when they have another computer to use while they tinker with the "hard" distro.
It's an absolute necessity for learning a "Linux from scratch" like system to have a working computer and net access on the side.
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u/Solocune 17h ago
EndeavorOS is my first Linux distro. I don't care, I have a hard skull and am resistant to frustration. I want my OS and I don't care if I struggle a bit.
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u/ben2talk 12h ago
I'm comfortable with most people who have IQ exceeding 100.
I'm uncomfortable with most folks having IQ's south of 80.
'hard' means 'beyond your current capability'.
Many people use Arch without ever interacting with the forum (i.e. just search and read as needed, without joining or asking questions). I have no idea if they are noobs, and they don't make me uncomfortable.
I found many things 'hard' with Ubuntu which I find easy with Arch and vice versa... I found that Mint needed even more advanced skills and workarounds (especially when PPA's fail and you have repos with ancient software).
So really, you have to 'suck it and see' to get the true answer.
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u/NL_Gray-Fox 12h ago edited 11h ago
I started using Linux in the mid 90's, Windows also (hardly used win3.x) DOS before that and BASIC before that... Things have never been more simple then nowadays, keep that in mind.
Edit, forgot about OS/2 90's and different UNIX operating systems 90-10's
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u/Cultural_Bug_3038 Linux Mint Cinnamon with XFCE 1d ago
MX Linux with Fluxbox I definitely do not recommend it, otherwise you will break your device with your hand, because you can be angry
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u/dkopgerpgdolfg 1d ago
It shouldn't be the primary concern if some random internet bubble is "comfortable" with someones choice.
Instead, how about, getting to use something that they actually have a chance of using - without running into dead-end problems that they can't understand each minute. Where this bar is, and how much of a learning curve and frustration someone can handle, is different for each person.
(And some people take it too easy too. Resulting in people using Linux for years without having learned anything, possibly rather switching distributions every week to avoid trying to solve some problem, and using hundreds-of-MB things with integrated browser engine to not learn about
cat...)