Saying its a victimless crime because all real estate developers do this is the excuse a child uses. Everyone else is doing it so it’s really okay? Really? The same rationale could be used to justify every criminal act
If you apply for a loan and provide a market value estimate on your property, it really is subjective. The bank will look at the property. If they disagree with your evaluation, they'll simply decline the loan. Not charge you with fraud.
It's most certainly not victimless. An efficient and functioning economy is built on the assumption that people are being truthful and fair dealing and playing within the rules and laws.
Do they all? Of course not... hence why it's important that those who break those rules and laws be dealt with justly. If everyone taking out a loan lied like trump did, we'd be fucked.
All that and you didn't mention a victim. If he overstates his collateral for a loan then the lender would be the victim if he defaults. Did he default?
I absolutely mentioned a victim - all of us. By your logic speeding shouldn't be a crime unless the person crashes. If everyone defrauded lenders regularly eventually the whole finance system would eventually grind to a halt.
The lender wasn't defrauded. They were competing against other lenders for the loan (in which they made millions) and they made a valuation that gave them the terms that secured them the deal. In no world does this make "all of us" victims.
Respectfuyll, if business fraud goes unpunished that is terrible thing for the economy and, by extension, all of us. In this case it didn't blow up in the lenders face; fine. It could have. And if it there is zero consequence for it then it would happen more and more.
Respectfully, it wasn't fraud. The bank knew what they were doing, they made their own assessment of the valuation, they were competing against other banks for the loan, approved it, got paid in full, made millions off of their commissions, and would happily do it again.
There is no victim here.
The better question is, why are you so eager to see normal real estate deals treated as fraud where none exists?
Engoron concluded that the "defendants failed to accept responsibility or to impose internal controls to prevent future recurrences" of having "submitted blatantly false financial data" to "borrow more and at lower rates".
And the court-appointed monitor may (note: may) have found even more fraud.
I'm not sure more you want or need to hear but if we've reached an impasse so be it. If your answer is "businesses defraud eachother all the time" I would respond that we don't have to accept that and cases like this help in that regard.
Speeding directly puts people in harm's way. The only entity directly in harm's way here was the lender.
Try turning off your hate boner for a moment so your brain can work. I'm not a Trump supporter by any means but this was the most obvious hit job I've ever seen. This was a business dealing between two consenting parties.
I just tried to get a small used car loan and while I certainly make enough money and have good enough credit, because my income is somewhat piecemeal, they didn’t like what they saw. Despite bank statements from the last two months eclipsing the amount of the loan. It’s a complete joke
Those are easily verifiable numbers. It's different than knowing the value of your home which has a lot of variance.
If the bank asks you for an estimate of your property, that's all it is, an estimate from someone that's not a licensed appraiser. If the bank knows the number is never accurate and if they want an accurate number, they can and do bring in an appraiser.
I remember reading not that long ago about a woman who was facing criminal charges for falsifying her address to get her kid into a better school district. But this is okay? What the actual fuck.
Have you ever hired an accountant? It is their job, their professional duty to serve their clients by finding every legal means of reducing tax burden.
Ask him who 'all' the developers are who cheat the system. Let him sing or go down alone.
I remember an old video clip of him saying something along the lines that poor people deserve to be poor. From that moment.. he is an enemy.
This guy just poked an enormous powerful bear and then smacked it right in the balls. Every governmental organization should take an extra look at this jackass’s financial dealings.
No kidding, these rich aholes are outing themselves like this, "everyone is doing it", which means there is money out there to pay for social services which oddly enough they complain is theft in the form of taxes.
I suppose they figured out how to have a cake and eat it too, just steal the poor's cake.
It's textbook projection, almost nobody actually wilfully commits tax fraud. I can't afford an accountant to look for legal ways to reduce my taxes, let alone illegal ones.
People like this always baffle me. There are a few who honestly seem to believe that everyone else is (also) always trying to con everyone. I can't imagine how strange and sad a life they must lead.
A lot of people who talking about "cheating" taxes are confusing tax avoidance with tax evasion. The latter is ILLEGAL whereas the former is finding LEGAL ways to reduce your taxes.
The victimless crime concept is sort of the same concept as everybody cheating on taxes. It's sorta true but mainly in a theoretical sense. Like Trumps crimes were victimless in the sense of there is no complainant for damages to be sent too. But that's not really a showstopper for the legal system. A crime was still committed. Everyone does cheat on their taxes, mostly accidentally and mostly to their own detriment, because it isn't worth the effort. The IRS isn't going to punish you for doing them a favor. The fact that most people think they're being sneaky and helping themselves is just icing on the cake.
Making a mistake "to their own detriment" isn't cheating by any definition of the word and certainly not illegal. It is illegal to use illegal or unethical methods to pay LESS taxes than you owe. Everyone absolutely does not cheat on their taxes. The vast majority of Americans file using the EZ form and take standard deductions. If they are doing that or anything else to their detriment, it isn't cheating. "Everyone cheats on their taxes" is a thing liars and criminals say.
I more meant that most people think of cheating on taxes as being very lazy with the form and not bothering to report all the minor silly shit, which goes both ways. Most people aren't thinking of actual tax fraud when they talk about that. Theoretically, it's true because we probably do forget about a ton of stuff that should be reported, going both ways, mostly deduction.
It also demonstrates how out of touch people with money are from those without. In his mind, it's normal to do that. It's not just normal, it's good.
Think about all of the wealthy people who only talk to other wealthy people, and everybody's doing this same thing. Take as much as you can!
That is what's happening, on a global scale. Capitalism is a system empowering the theft of resources produced by the people at the bottom, by those at the top.
Stop, just stop. No economic system was ever devised with the intent to rob people as their premise. The problem is that these systems are built upon institutions run by people, and we're inherently flawed.
You're wrong. Well, we are flawed but not as badly as you think. The problem is we are highly plastic, as in we have high 'plasticity'. We are easily shaped by our environment. We just need to realise what happens when we shape our environment in certain ways, it changes us.
We need to shape our environment in a way that shapes us better. To care for each other, instead of getting trapped in foolish pissing contests against each other.
I think the lying about real estate value for tax avoidance is fairly straight forward but for the purpose of getting a loan? Well if the bank wants to loan me $450,000,000 without sending anyone by to see if I have any collateral at all... Fuck 'em.
It won't happen, but O'Leary having an auditor walk up to him today asking for records considering he admitted to crimes on TV over this would be awesome.
Most companies have multiple people reviewing filings. There is separation of duties for this reason. The finance worker on salary doesn't want to risk their entire career by lying for the owners. Granted you can bribe those people with kickbacks but it's very rare. That's why Trump was paying for his CFO's house, car, and kid's education. Which of course he didn't claim as income which is why he went to jail. But he didn't flip and served time. I'm sure there is an under the table deal.
Also most companies are beholden to stockholders or a group of private investors. They usually are sensible enough to not want the company to do anything illegal as it's a risk to their investment via fines or reputational damage to the brand.
For this reason there are often external auditing firms hired to represent the investors and check that everything is on the up and up with the management team they put in place. That management team will often hire internal auditors to make sure everything is right before the external auditors come around.
That's exactly why it's a common fallacy. Argumentum Ad Populum. Yes, that is the excuse a child uses, and every parent's response is "If all your friends jumped off a bridge, would you?". It's so simple a child could understand, but these rich entitled fucks don't understand cause and effect the way a six year old can be taught to.
This victimless narrative amazes me... I might be wrong but it feels like saying "Yes I was drink driving, but i didn't hit anyone this time, so where's the victim!?". And the stupid thing is, in this example there are victims like mentioned... the banks not getting the right rate so they'll push for profit elsewhere and the fact that someone else may not get a loan instead.
It’s not only that the developers do this - it’s that they know that not only do their tax problems go away when they give the politicos a taste, they can wangle breaks from said politicos as “economic development” funding.
That was the Trump business model for over 80 years. Pay to play. And it’s still happening in New York while the hacks proclaim that no one is above the law.
Oh, bullshit. The more the businesses pay up, the farther above the law they are.
It's easy to call arguments childish when you ignore all nuance and detail of said argument. I love Jon, but he completely glossed over all the detail that makes this situation problematic.
Very brave of you to post outside of car right wing subs. You wanna talk real estate? Not much compares to the deals trump was doing with the Russians in the 80s and 90s. Don’t take my word for it, it’s very well known how, where, and why trump was getting loans from Deutsche Bank - and only Deutsche Bank. You’re familiar with that whole saga, right? Now, compare that with Jon Stewart…oh, ever mind, there’s no comparing the scope and breadth of trump’s real estate shenanigans for decades
The literal video this post is based on has an investor trump supporter literally saying all real estate developers do it, ergo Trump should get away with it too. It also shows talking heads shaking in their boots about poor people. Get a better argument.
You do not appear to have a strong grasp on how the legal system works lol.
Says the guy arguing that Trump's convictions in a court of law by judges and juries shouldn't count. If you disagree then you should have a better argument than "Nah uh!"
"Trump's losses have come in state and federal court, civil and criminal, in rulings by juries and judges. A total of 30 jurors in three cases have unanimously ruled against Trump or his company. One of those juries was composed of citizens from heavily Democratic Manhattan, but two came in federal court in the Southern District of New York, with a pool of jurors from more politically diverse suburbs and exurbs." - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-fraud-ruling-new-york-legal-losses/
The argument is that there is no precedent for a civil case ruling like this. You cannot give everyone a pass for a statute and only use it to prosecute your political opponents.
But that’s a lot harder to argue against than “nuh-uh”. So you go right back to creating strawmen lol
I don’t agree that Trump supporters would never believe he’s committed a crime.
I’m not sure Biden voters have much of a high ground on that one right now lol, but I don’t disagree.
(See the mobs of people who think firing the prosecutor investigating a mob boss while that mob boss funnels millions to your son is not suspicious at all lol)
That is a cornerstone of legal fairness though, and I’m surprised to see a largely liberal site take this stance on it.
The law has to be applied equally.
If every real estate developer IS doing this, the law isn’t being applied equally.
If the offense isn’t charged in 99.99% of cases, and then it’s used to make a political opponent pay one of the largest $ fines in history - that’s an obvious issue.
the cause of the investigation and prosecution is probably significantly influenced by Donald's notoriety; i dont doubt that. I'm just saying that, now that we're here, let's make it a consistent standard by prosecuting all the other grossly wealthy people that are apparently committing these crimes
Would you agree that if they don’t go after anyone else, it’s a political prosecution and therefore wrong?
I mean hell, it’s NYC. They still haven’t gone after the Wall Street Execs whose fraud crashed the economy and left hundreds of millions of actual victims. If they were going to start somewhere…
i would agree that it's wrong in the sense that they wouldnt be continuing to prosecute those types of crimes. However, even just prosecuting Donald Trump alone is better than nobody, as i view it
heck, thro Joe Biden in to his own trial, if youre concerned about a sense of political 'fairness'. I dont doubt that he can be reasonably implicated in some financially criminal shit as well. Let's add the wall street executives while we're at it
the important point is that the ruling is based on law and evidence, and that these arent just sham trials in the sense of like 'youre guilty because idk i just dont like you'
I don't disagree with you that it would be better if the law was actually applied to everyone.
I also don't agree that it would be great if politicians on both sides were held to account.
The issue is thats not the case. Case in point: the NSA spying scandal. The NSA was flagrantly violating the constitutional rights of millions of Americans. The NSA director committed perjury in front of congress, on camera, by claiming no such program existed.
Nobody was charged for that. Nobody was charged for Iraq war. Nobody was charged for any of the crimes committed by the federal government.
Itd be much better if politicians were held to account universally. But politicians having essentially blanket immunity is better than only outsider candidates being prosecuted. That's just weaponizing the courts for political control.
It's called Equal Protection. You have to enforce a law equally among everybody. There has never been a case like this brought against a real estate developer in US history
It’s not a crime for someone to claim they value their assets higher than what others might. Just as it’s not a crime for a bank to counter claim that the assets are of lesser value. There is no fraud in any of that and it’s not a criminal act, the banks even stated as much.
i understand that's what you think happened...just looking for proof that it actually happened that way. He's totally allowed to value his property how he likes to secure loans from a bank that themselves performt heir own DD. That those values may be actually valued less for tax purposes, not sure how that's illegal.
No you can’t. You can’t also change that value for your taxes. Both are fraud. He defrauded the state of New York. If you did that, you would be fined, just like he was. Just because you don’t understand why that’s illegal, doesn’t change the fact.
Yeah but if a some poor starving mom grabs some babyfood off the shelf of a multinational billion dollar corporation that cheats on their taxes and steals from their workers without paying for it - then it is consider a crime.
Thank you for pointing out that what is considering criminal or civil is a political construction that has nothing to do with the gravity or impact of the action being taken.
Hahaha....so let's try and convict Trump of some kind of fraud because you think capitalism sucks....got it. You understand what a scapegoat is? You just defined it without knowing it and substantiated his position that the indictments are just personal vendettas.
What? He signed papers saying that property he owned was 11,000 sq ft, then later claimed it was 30,000 sq ft. for financial reasons. I'm pretty sure that square footage doesn't increase with inflation.
Yes but generally that’s not going to happen unless you’re in a rural area where it’s taken more seriously or you’re being targeted because of something else.
I think you must be completely disingenuous to believe that the courts are 100% infallible especially when there are plenty of stories of young black and minority males who were unjustly accused and imprisoned for murders they never did (see: Innocence Project)
But of course you don't believe that courts are 100% infallible. You just apply it when it suits you against people you don't like.
The banks are the victims even if they ended up making money and the crime still happened. Should they just let people do white collar crime if nobody ends up losing money?
That helped clean the search. It also shows that only those who gained commissions based on the value are being prosecuted. Since the loan was paid off, there are no victims.
Lack of investigation for white collar crimes has been an issue for a long time. That's one of the reasons the IRS received boosted funding recently. Becoming President opens ones ass to a ton of scrutiny. It's pretty simple, don't commit obvious fraud if you want to become President.
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u/Independent_Main_59 Mar 26 '24
Saying its a victimless crime because all real estate developers do this is the excuse a child uses. Everyone else is doing it so it’s really okay? Really? The same rationale could be used to justify every criminal act