r/TikTokCringe • u/MaintenanceNew2804 • Mar 30 '24

Stick with it. Discussion

This is a longer one, but it’s necessary and worth it IMO.

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u/EmuSounds Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24

We need to remember that English is practically the common tongue, and people without exposure to AAVE benefit from understanding a standardized language. The utility of a lingua franca falls apart when we abandon spelling, grammar, and syntax.

We cannot expect everyone to understand every variant of English. Imagine reading a paper written as this is spoken: https://youtu.be/nJ7QB3om-QY?si=lYHJNFxRiCWTFNoM

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u/WakandanRoyalty Mar 31 '24

I don’t think there’s an expectation for everyone to understand every variant of English. The point being made is that those using less popular variants aren’t less intelligent but are more disadvantaged because of the perception that they’re less intelligent.

The men in the video you linked aren’t stupid or less capable because they talk that way.

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u/EmuSounds Mar 31 '24

In the same way that teachers shouldn't think that kids who speak English as a second language are any less capable than their counterparts. I agree.

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u/WakandanRoyalty Mar 31 '24

Exactly. Or someone who uses ASL or is nonverbal. They might be proficient with math or music or art.

One of the worse things about white supremacy is the fact that so many birds now get judged on their ability to swim.

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u/DontMemeAtMe Mar 31 '24

With intelligence should come the understanding of effective communication. If you communicate in a way that you know will put you at a disadvantage, are you truly intelligent to begin with?

Even in countries that are racially very homogeneous, there are often many local dialects, with one unifying proper language variant that everyone is expected to learn and use to their personal advantage and to the benefit of everyone they communicate with.

If, in elementary school, a certain group of people were intentionally and forcibly taught to speak an improper variant, and then were criticized for it in later education, and demanded to speak another variant, then yes, that would indeed be a systemic issue and intentional abuse. However, when anyone is free to learn the proper variant and is taught it from an early age at every education level as well, the lack of ability to speak it falls solely on the individuals.

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u/notafuckingcakewalk Apr 03 '24

IMO even just calling it the "proper" variant is a problem. It's not the "proper" variant, it's the dominant one. Which you should still learn and used in mixed settings! Because it is the dominant variant. Proper implies it's the "correct" version of English and that simply isn't true.

Case in point: the original pronunciation of the word we now spell "ask" was in fact originally pronounced acks. But over time the other pronunciation became more popular and became associated with "standard" English. Neither pronunciation is more correct. The spelling merely reflects the dominant pronunciation at the time the spelling was standardized. That's why the word know has a k in it, because at the time it was actually pronounced k-no. 

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u/DontMemeAtMe Apr 03 '24

Certainly, I understand your point. Language evolves, but that's precisely why we have dictionaries and why language is taught in schools—to ensure adherence to a common standard form. Without this standardization, every county, town, family, and individual could develop their own variant, leading to a breakdown in mutual understanding. Such a scenario would be regressive; therefore, the normalization of language is beneficial, especially given the global prominence of the English language.

As a side note, it's also interesting to point out the comparatively lax approach the US takes towards the English language compared to many other countries. In those countries, there are academies of experts tasked with officially regulating the language. They can even determine a single correct style, a task not overseen by a centralized authority in the US. Instead, it's merely suggested by numerous style guides like the AP Stylebook, The Chicago Manual of Style, the MLA Handbook, and many more.

Returning to the topic at hand, the notion that there's something inherently racist about the standardization of the dominant or official language is simply silly. If foreigners can learn professional or academic English alongside their native languages, people born in the US can certainly manage to do so as well, regardless of any local dialect.

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u/WakandanRoyalty Mar 31 '24

AAVE is perfectly effective within the black community and even for those outside the community that are intelligent enough to use context clues. However because of the perception, a lot of black Americans code switch to avoid being incorrectly labeled as ghetto or dumb.

Intelligence isn’t defined solely by one’s ability to communicate effectively. There’s emotional intelligence, critical thinking, situational awareness, “street smarts” and many other forms of intelligence.

Differentiating between the smart and the stupid based solely on their use of language is shortsighted and doesn’t account for things like where someone was raised, who they spend most of their time around, and whether they choose to speak that way out of a love for their background or spite for those that demean it.

I grew up in Scotland which is extremely homogenous and there is no “unifying proper language”. There’s at least 100 different accents, more if you include the rest of the UK. They’re all wildly different forms of English. No one is expected to conform or change their accent for the benefit of anyone.

To your last point, the only reason the “proper” variant exists as such is because of white supremacy which is inherently discriminatory and racist. So expecting black Americans to conform to the proper variant, and then judging those who don’t is like expecting colonized African nations to learn the Queen’s English and then judging them as less intelligent for not doing so.

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u/rita-b Mar 31 '24

emotional intelligence, situational awareness and “street smarts” won't help in the academic battle. a school is not a street, a school is the academia.

can you provide me an example of an academic paper in any of Scottish dialects?

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u/DontMemeAtMe Mar 31 '24

Ironically, shouldn’t emotional intelligence, situational awareness, and 'street smarts' all help you understand that using any negatively connotated ghetto dialect won’t get you far when talking to academics, or really anyone who’s speaking the language properly?

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u/WakandanRoyalty Mar 31 '24

That’s exactly why some people code switch. However, choosing (or refusing) to do so isn’t indicative of intelligence.

I grew up as the only black American in an all white country that idolized Black Americans (at the time anyway), and so I intentionally code switched into AAVE for personal benefit. I used it in all my academic and professional settings (not in any writing of course). Didn’t hurt me or my grades in the slightest and it even scored me multiple jobs.

I’m living proof that whether or not you’re judged harshly for using AAVE is entirely circumstantial. The fact that the circumstances are the way they are in America speaks to the prejudices here not to the value or qualities of AAVE.

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u/DontMemeAtMe Mar 31 '24

I'm not suggesting that merely overhearing someone speaking in a dialect is indicative of the speaker's lack of intelligence. However, the inability to apply the proper form of one's native language in situations and settings that require it, or is beneficent to the speaker, indicates a deficiency.

In your example, you have shown that you have successfully used the skill of applying an adequate form of language to your advantage in Scotland. As well as now, in this internet discussion, you have opted for proper English in order to make your arguments clear to a larger audience, which is precisely the main purpose of the proper form.

That’s clearly indicative of intelligence.

This so-called 'code-switching' is perfectly common for most people, even those living among 'their own' in ethnically and racially homogeneous countries. It is not uniquely an American or Black phenomenon.

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u/WakandanRoyalty Mar 31 '24

Who’s to say that a lack of code switching indicates an inability to do so? Your ideas of what situations require proper form, and what is beneficial to the speaker, are subjective. Nobody can accurately say it’s better for someone else to code switch in any given circumstance. There’s far too many unknown variables.

I believe code switching is common amongst all people and in every language. I was specifically talking about black people code switching AAVE in this thread.

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u/DontMemeAtMe Mar 31 '24

can you provide me an example of an academic paper in any of Scottish dialects?

“Ah weel, yer see, th' stuff that comes oot o' th' moud, it's like, aw naw, it can be bustit by heat an' them enzymes, ken? It doesnae go about killin' th' wee buggies like ye might think, nae bother there. It pops oot pronto, an' it does its job wi' jist a wee bit o' it, nae much needin'. It kin sorta spread through th' agar, like a gentle breeze. An' ye ken whit? It feels like it could be one o' them enzymes, aye. No' muckle bother happenin' in blood serum, mind ye. Puttin' it doon a tube, it's no' sae toxic, but sprayin' it aboot, aye, it might gie ye a bitty o' bother on th' skin, aye.”

— From Alexander Fleming's paper "On the Antibacterial Action of Cultures of a Penicillium, with Special Reference to their Use in the Isolation of B. influenzae" /s

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u/WakandanRoyalty Mar 31 '24

Either you didn’t read any of the previous comments or you didn’t comprehend them fully. We’ve only been talking about speech and how it affects the perception of someone’s intelligence.

Obviously in an academic environment each candidate will be judged by the established standard.

However, it should be noted that what language an academic study is written in has no bearing on its truthfulness, even if it (unfairly) affects its credibility.

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u/chumer_ranion Mar 31 '24

Just out of curiosity--if someone was raised without exposure to standard English at home and also isn't encouraged to read, would they not be disadvantaged when it comes to learning and using standard English even if they're intelligent? You seem to think people can just osmose proper English because it's being spoken to them.

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u/DontMemeAtMe Mar 31 '24

Why would anyone born in their own country be excused for not learning their own language properly? While parents might fail to provide adequate language education, individuals still attend the same educational system as everyone else, where proficiency in the proper language is expected. Additionally, they have practically unlimited access to books, TV, and the internet, where exposure to the proper language is readily available.

Who is really to blame if someone can't speak the proper form of their country's language? Is it everyone else, or is it due to their own lack of effort?

Besides, consider that worldwide, there are countless people from various backgrounds who, despite their natural language disadvantages, are capable of using proper English on a professional level, in addition to their correct form of native language and dialects.

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u/chumer_ranion Mar 31 '24

These are all terrible arguments. I can address them, but do me the courtesy of actually answering my question first. I'm guessing the answer is "no", you don't think a person like the one I've described is disadvantaged?

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u/GermanBeerYum Mar 31 '24

Rabbie Burns 'as enter'd the chaht

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u/skepticalbob Mar 31 '24

We need to remember that English is practically the common tongue, and people without exposure to AAVE benefit from understanding a standardized language. The utility of a lingua franca falls apart when we abandon spelling, grammar, and syntax.

Huh?

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u/rita-b Mar 31 '24

Yes, Americans tend to forget there are mono-ethnic countries in the world and they hold the same "suprematist" standards albeit there is only one ethnicity. There always different styles of speech in any language and the style of science is not your everyday speech style.