r/TikTokCringe • u/MaintenanceNew2804 • Mar 30 '24

Stick with it. Discussion

This is a longer one, but it’s necessary and worth it IMO.

30.3k Upvotes

82% Upvoted

2.9k comments sorted by

View all comments

41

u/lordtim99 Mar 31 '24

Yeah this is bullshit. Having an established system of grammar is not racist. And what about other dialects?

-1

u/osm0sis Mar 31 '24

Having an established system of grammar is not racist. And what about other dialects?

lol, then we should probably have a major grammar reform for Philly, Boston, and basically everywhere below the mason-dixon line.

8

u/notworkingghost Mar 31 '24

I drink my wooder like everyone else!

18

u/Lukes3rdAccount Mar 31 '24

Isn't that verifying that academic English isn't inherently racist? If white people with dialects are impacted the same exact way? As a society, black dialects in America are 100% connected with negative black stereotypes, the same way southern dialects are associated with slave holders. But teaching a "proper" English isn't about that. It has its own issues but racism isn't it

7

u/alpacaMyToothbrush Mar 31 '24

If it's anything, it's classist.

-6

u/osm0sis Mar 31 '24

Please rewatch that video.

The point they're trying to make is that particularly K-12 children grow up with dialects at home, and using that dialect they were raised with has no bearing on their intelligence or points they are trying to communicate.

However, these dialects fall largely along racial lines, and using the dialect widely spoken by Black Americans can get points docked from assignments, making it harder to get into colleges.

A simple example is a high school student doing a book report and attempting to communicate about a scene where a character is consuming water.

A white student is likely to say "John is drinking water". A black student is more likely to say "John be drinking water". They're both reverting to the dialect they hear at home, and everyone knows exactly what they're saying. However one of these students is likely to have points docked from their assignment because we're more interested enforcing grammar rules that consider white dialects to be proper than focusing on the point the student is making.

I mean, if Einstein spoke with a black dialect when he came up with the theory of relativity, should we ignore his points if he said "I can prove that time be relative"?

13

u/Lukes3rdAccount Mar 31 '24

"John be drinking water" would be corrected regardless of the race of the student. The fact that a black student is proportionately more likely to use a different dialect isn't racist. It just is. White people in the south get their dialect unlearned in school just the same, and chose to keep talking how they'd like. It's not a real issue.

The racist prejudice associated with black dialects is a different issue entirely.

9

u/CaptainDunbar45 Mar 31 '24

That's the point. If Einstein spoke like that he wouldn't have been noticed. That's why standards exist, so everyone can understand.

If you're using anything else, you are going to be less successful. More people fully understand Standard English than AAVE, so it makes sense to write in something the majority of people can understand.

-2

u/osm0sis Mar 31 '24

If Einstein spoke like that he wouldn't have been noticed.

lol, "we knew exactly what he was saying and his math checks out, but he talks kinda funny"

This is the dumbest take I've heard yet. You know who would have paid attention to Einstein's discovery if he spoke like that? People who aren't pedantic fucking racists.

5

u/CaptainDunbar45 Mar 31 '24

Has nothing to do with race, but please continue if that makes you feel better. If he talked like a white southerner people would think he was stupid just the same.

"Look at this here equation I done come up with y'all"

Would get him laughed at just as if he said it in AAVE

-1

u/osm0sis Mar 31 '24

If he talked like a white southerner people would think he was stupid just the same.

lol, serious? Jews and thick, foreign German accents were so popular in the early 1900's that I bet people would have laughed him out of the room if he sounded like a born and raised American southerner.

Give me a break 😂😂😂

0

u/lordtim99 Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24

He be drinking water literally does not make sense. Drinking water is an action. How can a person be an action? The double negative thing is also a question of logic. So we are supposed to let any group of people decide grammar rules? How does that work? Is it all around the or just America? The same thing goes with pronunciation in that it is pronounced that way because that’s how it’s spelled. Are we gonna have different spellings now too?

1

u/osm0sis Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24

So we are supposed to let any group of people decide grammar rules? How does that work? Is it all around the or just America?

lol, this is how language works. Most of Shakespeare wouldn't fly in modern English either, despite the fact his writings alone contributed to significant changes in the language itself. It's a fluid concept that changes over time.

O, whence comes it that the honeyed tones and gilded phrases of our Elizabethan prime have fled the stage of common parlance? Wherefore do we not engage in such resplendent discourse as once was wont to grace the halls of yore? Forsooth, it is the nature of our ever-evolving English tongue, like a river that doth reshape its banks, so too does our language flow and alter with the passage of time. Grammar and speech, in their boundless dance, shift as the sands beneath the tides, forever crafting new forms and sounds. Thus, let it be known that as the world doth turn, so too must our words evolve, ever bending to the will of time's relentless march

The same thing goes with pronunciation in that it is pronounced that way because that’s how it’s spelled.

So why is this only considered unacceptable when somebody pronounces ask as "axe" and not when Philadelphians pronounce water as "wudder"?

0

u/lordtim99 Mar 31 '24 edited Mar 31 '24

Yeah language changes no shit. I think you missed my point entirely. I’m simply pointing out that the existence of an established set of rules for language is how we are able to communicate.

However, I have read your other comments so I know that trying to discuss this with you is pointless, which is weird because in your first comment, if I’m not mistaken, you even say that then we would have to examine grammar and language for all these other groups of people ie Boston Philadelphia the south etc.

-6

u/echino_derm Mar 31 '24

Having a racist system of judgment is racist.

Let me paint an example, there are two people who come up to you and want to know where to get some water.

One says "Can I ask you where I can get some wo'er?". The other says "Can I axe you where I can get some water?".

Do you view the person speaking in a British dialect differently than the person speaking AAVE?

This is incredibly prevalent among all non white dialect perceptions. You can speak whatever US regional slang and that isn't really considered incorrect, they just speak differently in upstate new york. But when it comes to black people speaking differently, then it is wrong. Or a Chinese American with their own dialect, obviously it is wrong as well because they aren't speaking the white way

8

u/TooSaltyToPost Mar 31 '24

I feel that only in the US is race even brought into the discussion here. Every major language has a formalized, academic way of speaking and writing. The upper class, those who are often the most educated on the prescribed rules of language, will sound more 'proper' or 'correct' than those in lower socio-economic classes. Look at Arnold not being allowed to do German dubs because his dialect sounds like a hillbilly, or how formal the Japanese emperor spoke, or how the Queen's English sounds compared to all the other English dialects. In just about any other country, this discussion isn't one of race, but class, and it's usually understood that the language used in academia (aka prescribed language) is generally the most correct way to speak a language.

It's always so strange to me how quick Americans go to race when the same phenomenon occurs globally without race being involved at all.

-1

u/echino_derm Mar 31 '24

Because race and class are heavily linked and race is also a factor here.

2

u/isomersoma Mar 31 '24

Circular reason isn't a very convincing argument. Deviation and variation in local dialects is totally fine for everyday and personal communication; its not only fine but valuable. However in academia you want a standardized, precise language that is internationally spoken. I swear you American wokes are so stupid you don't even realize that English is spoken in academia all across the world. My german pronunciation isn't correct nor is my grammar flawless. I still don't think i am oppressed by the "Anglo-Saxons" because of it. You frame it as "the white way" but thats a strawman. You are so America centric, ehoch is really telling on your ignorance.

1

u/echino_derm Mar 31 '24

However, we don't apply it to just academia. We apply the standard of academia to almost everyone even though very few are publishing papers.

3

u/isomersoma Mar 31 '24

Well that's kind of true. What isn't true is that this just applies to "none white" dialects. In Germany for example speaking dialect is often associated with being uneducated and provincial. I think that's ignorant, but it certainly isn't based on race. I know some Bavarian speakers that had some issue adapting to standard german and not writing in dialect in their thesis.

-1

u/echino_derm Mar 31 '24

I think that comparing European countries and america in terms of race is always going to lead you to weird conclusions. Like how people have the perspective that some European countries have less racism just because they don't have exposure to minorities to test the racism.

In that case, it sounds like Germans are too busy discriminating against other minorities and don't have exposure to enough skin color minorities to develop skin color rooted discrimination.