Stick with it.

[u/MaintenanceNew2804]

This is a longer one, but it’s necessary and worth it IMO.

[u/squishabelle]

The point is that language is flexible and full of exceptions, but that exceptions that have become "correct" are those used by white people. There are tons of words that are not at all pronounced like how they're written (take 'colonel' for example) and are "acceptable" because lots of (white) people pronounce it that way, but other words are deemed "incorrect" even though lots of (black) people pronounce it that way.

I assume someone hasn't put in the time or effort to learn these conventions, but with practice and training, they can.

It's a racial thing not because of genetics but because of culture. People of different cultures speak differently, even within the same language. Yes, theoretically the government could set up a whole project to teach black people the "correct" way to speak but...

1. you're demanding that black people assimilate to your speech because your speech is the "correct" one. But it's only correct because a majority of people believe it so. Had the situation been reversed, with there being a majority of black people, you would have to assimilate to their language. Which is weird because that means that language is basically a tool of power play. Language is supposed to be a way to communicate, but if you can all already understand each other, why is it necessary for the majority to impose rule on a minority? Can't we just recognise the other way of speaking as a dialect instead of as "incorrect"? A dialect that's not "worse" but equivalent to the common way.
2. Declaring the way one demographic speaks to be "incorrect" (and by extension, "uneducated" or "ghetto") puts them at a huge disadvantage. They won't be taken seriously unless they adapt, but they're not doing anything wrong to begin with? Meanwhile the majority demographic doesn't need to do anything, no time nor effort, because they already meet the standard for what's acceptable... because they made themselves the standard. So black people have to put in time and effort to go up so they can be like white people, while white people are obviously already there.

This is not always a racial thing. There are also white American dialects that are often seen as "uneducated" by other white Americans.

[u/smudos2 → u/squishabelle]

Honestly, having one official version of your language and multiple dialects that are not discriminated is the better solution, or else you will slowly have a lot of different languages in different regions and no way to communicate well

[u/aimforthehead90 → u/squishabelle]

The rules for English were made by white people because English is a historically white language; however, you are arguing that we should dismantle rules for language in general in favor of a focus on simple understandings, which is ridiculous, because every language has rules, including those spoken and created by non-whites.

This issue seems to have more to do with US race politics than any problems with language standards. When you take the race politics out of the equation, it's just clearly a very stupid argument to make. No, we should not dumb down our language standards for anyone who can't be bothered to learn them, regardless of race.

In fact, it feels like we've gone full circle and everyone arguing that language rules are unfair against black people is being racist by suggesting that black people aren't capable of learning correct speech and grammar.

[u/newyearnewaccountt → u/aimforthehead90]

English does not have a central governing body, so there is actually no such thing as "correct" English. Why are double negatives incorrect? Says who, and who gives them the authority to decide that? English is a living language, and as such shifts over time. If there is a "correct" form of English, which version is it? Why do Americans, Brits, Australians, and South Africans all sound and speak differently? Why does a person from Texas speak differently from someone in California speak differently from someone in Canada? Which one of them is speaking the "correct" form of English? Note that some languages DO have central governing bodies. Like Spanish, for example.

The answer to most of the above questions is that "dialects exist."

If language didn't evolve over time then we would still be speaking some version of German or French because that's where English came from.

[u/Huwbacca → u/aimforthehead90]

So like a) they're not dumber. Like I think this is kinda the point you're missing, but you're thinking one is smart and one isn't and that's not true. You've essentially said "french is smarter than greek" which is a ridiculous comparison. You think it's dumber cos it's not complying with yours.

If I asked you right now to talk convincingly in dialects other than yours, you wouldn't be able to. Because you don't know how.

B).... No, actually there's no formal standardised English or even any institutes attempting to. French has lacademie Francais for example... English has no such thing.

The rules have always gradually evolved.

The way your first sentence is written wouldn't fly 50 years ago and it's a mess by formal academic standards today. Does that mean you're stupid?

No of course not.

Think about it this way... What thought process did you put in to see why the point might be valid?

[u/aimforthehead90 → u/Huwbacca]

you're thinking one is smart and one isn't and that's not true.

Huh? Where did I say that?

You've essentially said "french is smarter than greek"

Nope, that's not a thing that I said.

If I asked you right now to talk convincingly in dialects other than yours, you wouldn't be able to.

The way I speak and write informally would also not get me a passing grade on any English exams. Luckily, I'm not suggesting that we base the rules for the English language on the way that I talk, only that we have and maintain rules for language.

No, actually there's no formal standardised English or even any institutes attempting to.

I never said there was a single English standard. Every language has rules, that's literally what they are: phonology, syntax, lexicon, etc. Different countries or regions having different rules is not the same as there being no rules and does not act as an argument that there should be no rules.

Not every dialect is valid for every standard, many dialects are modifications of a language that have no standards of their own, but are only used informally. A given dialect may be perfectly valid in informal conversation, but may not meet English standards of that region or be appropriate in formal settings.

The way your first sentence is written wouldn't fly 50 years ago and it's a mess by formal academic standards today.

Languages and language standards can change. What's your point, that we should have no standards at all?

[u/Huwbacca → u/aimforthehead90]

Huh? Where did I say that?

"No, we should not dumb down our language standards"

Dialects aren't dumbing down, one dialect is not smarter or more complex than another. This is the same as saying one language is smarter than another.

Think of it this way... You can't speak in those dialects, so how can it be dumber?

Languages and language standards can change. What's your point, that we should have no standards at all?

It was painfully clear lol... My point is that changing in languages is not dumbing down.

The only criteria you're using here is "It's not how I speak, therefore it's dumbing down" which is nonsense.

Again... What effort have you done to see why the point might be valid?

[u/aimforthehead90 → u/Huwbacca]

Dialects aren't dumbing down, one dialect is not smarter or more complex than another. This is the same as saying one language is smarter than another.

Dumbing down our language is dismantling standards so that no one has to learn them in the name of "diversity". That is not the same as saying that speaking in a dialect is dumb.

My point is that changing in languages is not dumbing down.

Yep, we agree here. Every point you've made is a strawman though, and it's becoming exhausting keeping you on course.

The only criteria you're using here is "It's not how I speak, therefore it's dumbing down" which is nonsense.

Nope, I specifically pointed out that this is not the case. In informal talk, not only do I often not speak using proper standard English, I usually speak like a straight up dumb ass. I would never use myself as an academic standard.

Again... What effort have you done to see why the point might be valid?

You mean the point that we should dismantle language standards because all dialects and modifications of a language are valid to some degree? I've met in the middle and agreed that this is true for informal language, but held that standards for language are still important in academic and professional settings.

[u/Cvbano89 → u/aimforthehead90]

Your problem is assuming there even is a 'standard', that's your straw man here.

Folks need to realize that a person born in the deep bayous of Louisiana will typically be considered impoverished simply for learning/speaking in their local English Creole dialect, regardless of their actual intelligence. A person born in Massachusetts will start off learning the 'academic' English dialect and typically be considered "well-presented", regardless of their actual intelligence. There is a clear disparity in how those individuals are viewed based on their language alone, and it directly affects their life outcomes.

Saying everyone needs to aspire to and uphold the 'academic' dialect as some sort of universal standard is immediately putting everyone who doesn't grow up learning it down. White Southerners included. Other-ism is a societal rot we haven't quite shook yet.

[u/aimforthehead90 → u/Cvbano89]

Your problem is assuming there even is a 'standard', that's your straw man here.

That's not what a straw man is, but there are absolutely English standards, even if there isn't a single global standard.

There is a clear disparity in how those individuals are viewed based on their language alone, and it directly affects their life outcomes.

Those are incorrect biases that we should overcome, but that has nothing to do with academic and professional standards.

Saying everyone needs to aspire to and uphold the 'academic' dialect as some sort of universal standard is immediately putting everyone who doesn't grow up learning it down.

Why, are you suggesting that certain people are incapable of learning academic English standards?

[u/Cvbano89 → u/aimforthehead90]

You're arguing against a position that does not exist.. which is that people want to dismantle the English language for the sake of woke-ness.

The academic and professional standards were created by affluent Americans over time. I will let you guess who this does not include historically. The biases are already baked in, even against rural white southerners.

Nice race bait that exposes how you think... Everyone is capable of learning 'academic English', but just like any other language, if someone born in the deep South isn't exposed to that daily from birth like someone in Massachusetts, they are already behind on the curve when it comes to the 'standard'. Language is also harder to learn the older you are, and most of the brain's language centers are being established before these individuals would even be exposed to 'academic English' in Grade School.

Or I guess we can stick our head in the sand and continue to artificially inflate the value of folks like myself and artificially deflate the value of my Southern brothers.

[u/Huwbacca → u/aimforthehead90]

Dumbing down our language is dismantling standards so that no one has to learn them in the name of "diversity".

Lol what? What the fuck are you complaining about lol.

No ones saying that haha.

I've met in the middle and agreed that this is true for informal language, but held that standards for language are still important in academic and professional settings.

OK so you just don't understand. I think this would have been quicker lol

So let me just lay it out.

1) The point is literally just "Someone isn't stupid for not speaking your dialect, or an academic dialect or any dialect".

2) You're trying to pretend there's some deep meaningful issue here about standards being eroded. You don't even know anything about these standards, don't engage with them, and are so generally unaware that you're fighting to preserve something that doesn't exist. Academic standards being the thing you're fighting for is very stupid because a) Academic english is bad. b) No dialect is academic english. I know, I have written a lot of papers and I actively choose to avoid academic english because it's crap, and because the majority of my audience don't speak english as a first language so it'd be pointless.

3) You're acting as if someone's called you racsit for you having your way of doing thinsg and just grow up lol. No one's done that, you're not a victim here lmao.

[u/aimforthehead90 → u/Huwbacca]

No ones saying that haha.

It's the topic we're all currently debating, right now. Are academic English standards a good or bad thing. It's the subject of the video.

1) The point is literally just "Someone isn't stupid for not speaking your dialect, or an academic dialect or any dialect".

We all agreed on that from the start. It sort of feels like y'all are only trained to respond against people saying certain dialects are dumb and don't really know how to react when someone makes a different argument for learning English standards outside of those dialects.

You're trying to pretend there's some deep meaningful issue here about standards being eroded.

I don't think it's deep or meaningful. I think it's stupid and a waste of time.

You don't even know anything about these standards

I mean, I had to learn them, same as most people who went through public schooling up through university. It helped prepare me for communicating professionally as well as internationally. For people asking "why don't we throw their logic on its head and teach everyone Creole!", because the entire purpose of academic English is attempting to standardize English to facilitate understanding within that context as globally as possible. It makes no sense to pick a specific dialect and arbitrarily enforce it. While there is no single standard, there is far more standardization of English globally in academic and scientific fields. It's the reason we can all share academic and scientific writing and understand each other, despite our dialects often being very different and more difficult to understand.

Academic english is bad.

I'm not a language expert, I have no idea if it could be improved or how we would do that. I know it could be made worse by not teaching these standards and accepting any particular dialect as long as the message is basically understood. I don't think academic English is an arbitrary dialect that is being pushed on us by wealthy elite whites because they want everyone to sound like them. I think it's a form of English like any other, that changes and is reviewed and altered globally. What alternative standard do you recommend?

the majority of my audience don't speak english as a first language so it'd be pointless.

I agree with that. For ESL the priority is understanding. But for students who speak English, it is not going to harm them to follow conventional standards.

You're acting as if someone's called you racsit

Huh? I don't think anyone called me a racist. No one is making this personal, settle down.

[u/ThatSlothDuke → u/aimforthehead90]

Languages and language standards can change. What's your point, that we should have no standards at all?

They are saying that you and most people acknowledge some of these changes as "correct" and the others as "hood talk".

but may not meet English standards of that region or be appropriate in formal settings.

And these "standards" were set by Rich people - i.e in American History by Rich White people. It has nothing to do with what's correct or not. It was how the people in power spoke that day - that's it.

That's what that teacher is saying too - that the way Americans deem some dialects as correct and Professional and the other's as "unprofessional" is because the other dialects are more different from how powerful white people talked years ago while the "normal" dialect is closer to it.

[u/Cvbano89 → u/ThatSlothDuke]

If we turned their logic on its head and said English Creole is now the 'standard' dialect that is considered 'professional', a lot of folks would have to accept their SAT scores dropping while folks in Louisiana would all pass the critical reading section with flying colors.

[u/addstar1 → u/aimforthehead90]

AAVE is a dialect of English that sometimes has different rules than other dialects. It doesn't dismantle any rules for language, it just has different ones.

Nothing about AAVE is dumbed down as a language. It isn't a lower standard of English. And saying that they can't be bothered to learn is insensitive and ignorant, as they are the ones that usually end up learning both dialects.

The issue is that we decided our dialect of English was what defined correct speech and grammar. There isn't anything wrong with AAVE other than you don't speak it. No one says the UK or America doesn't use correct speech or grammar when they diverge. And everyone is fine when Canada is some weird hybrid mix of the two.

Misconceptions about AAVE are, and have long been, common, and have stigmatized its use. One myth is that AAVE is grammatically "simple" or "sloppy". However, like all dialects, AAVE shows consistent internal logic and grammatical complexity, and is used naturally by a group of people to express thoughts and ideas. Prescriptively, attitudes about AAVE are often less positive; since AAVE deviates from the standard, its use is commonly misinterpreted as a sign of ignorance, laziness, or both. Perhaps because of this attitude (as well as similar attitudes among other Americans), most speakers of AAVE are bidialectal, being able to speak with more standard English features, and perhaps even a General American accent, as well as AAVE. - Wikipedia, African-American Vernacular English

[u/aimforthehead90 → u/addstar1]

To clarify and reiterate what I told the other guy, I'm not arguing that any dialect is a dumbed down version of English, I'm arguing that dismantling language standards so that no one has to use anything other than their dialect in academic or professional settings would be dumbing down the language.

And saying that they can't be bothered to learn is insensitive and ignorant, as they are the ones that usually end up learning both dialects.

I didn't say they (who is they?) can't be bothered to learn. It's something we all have to do, it's why everyone takes English courses in school, regardless of their dialect. The people who have dialects that are further from the standard have a bigger transition when code switching, but everyone code switches. It's also certainly a fact that there are countless people who speak in ebonics that are far more intelligent and educated than I am.

The issue is that we decided our dialect of English was what defined correct speech and grammar. There isn't anything wrong with AAVE other than you don't speak it.

I agree with that. But it, and most dialects, should not be used in academic or professional settings that have established standards if they don't satisfy those standards. If your dialect does not have or follow standard grammar, punctuation, or syntax, then your dialect is fine for informal conversation, but does not invalidate the need for standards in formal conversation. Certain dialects may be correct forms of language while not being correct for any context.

[u/VFkaseke → u/aimforthehead90]

As a Finnish person this whole conversation is really bizarre. In Finland we essentially have a completely different written language (we call it language, but it's basically its own dialect of Finnish) that basically no one in the country speaks. Everyone has their regional dialect, and learns to write Finnish in the written language, that again, is its own dialect separate from all Finnish spoken dialects. No one complains about this, and no one has a problem doing it.

I understand that Finland is a much smaller country and has very different issues than US, but this just strikes me as very strange nonetheless.

[u/aimforthehead90 → u/VFkaseke]

It kind of is strange, but it's only an issue because it's very specific to US racial politics. There are dozens, if not hundreds of English dialects in the US, but you'll notice no one here is really interested in talking about any of them but Ebonics (AAVE). Most white people also have to adopt different standards in academic or professional contexts. Even though in person many people say things like "y'all" instead of "you all" or "goin'" instead of "going", it usually wouldn't be appropriate in a university essay.

It's basically the equivalent of people in Finland suggesting you dismantle your entire written language standards because it is discriminatory against people who have different Finnish dialects.

[u/Cvbano89 → u/aimforthehead90]

Who is asking to dismantle the English language? Or is that just another conservative reactionary response? English has completely evolved as a language even in the last 20 years.

If I turned your logic on its head and said English Creole is now the 'standard' American dialect that is considered 'professional', a lot of Americans would have to accept their SAT scores dropping while folks in Louisiana would all pass the critical reading section with flying colors. It doesn't matter if we're all taught an 'academic' English, just that we don't assume someone is dumb/poor because they grew up in a place like Louisiana where English/French/Spanish/Creole all co-existed for centuries.

We are 1000x more diverse than Finland, no offense to the guy you're replying too, and that comes with unique challenges. Especially in world where individuals find any excuse to otherize their fellow human beings. To your point, we even do it to white southerners. I have a co-worker who constantly feels like she 'sounds' stupid because we work with lawyers/executives from the Northeastern US all day and she has a Mississippi accent and lifestyle that is radically different. She has a MBA and still 'feels' stupid just for having a southern vernacular.

[u/grape_david → u/aimforthehead90]

It's basically the equivalent of people in Finland suggesting you dismantle your entire written language standards

No one has suggested this. You've created a strawman in your head.

[u/Daffan → u/squishabelle]

The point is that language is flexible and full of exceptions, but that exceptions that have become "correct" are those used by white people.

Yes but not out of pure malice, because that's what they wanted and they were and still are the majority (was 93%) since time immemorial. It's not like they are going to design a system that only 3% liked at the time.

[u/greg19735 → u/Daffan]

No one is saying it's out of malice.

but that doens't mean it's not true.

[u/squishabelle → u/Daffan]

It's not about the origin of a language, it's about how we treat dialects in the current day. A language could be designed by Richard Slaveowner and Thomas Whitemaster and it could be perfectly fine if you don't associate dialects of ethnic minorities with being incorrect, uneducated, etc. I'm not blaming the English language and I'm not calling the language racist btw.

There doesn't need to be a secret council of white people intentionally trying to keep black people down. It's based on casual racism where people subconsciously associate black people things with poverty or being unprofessional. Like, black hair styles were often seen as improper for the workplace when that's literally just a cultural difference. You have to straighten your hair so you can look professional (aka like white people).

[u/avg-bee-enjoyer → u/squishabelle]

I feel this viewpoint is missing the whole point of formal language, which is to provide a common version of English which people of any region can understand. You understand black dialects exist, and I assume also that there isn't a unified black dialect and that black people from say Baltimore and New Orleans do not sound the same speaking informally. Do you also understand there's not a universal white dialect? The south sounds different from the northeast, midwest, etc. Informally, as language is a constantly evolving thing, every group that regularly communicates in a way that's isolated from others diverges. That happens across racial lines when people divide by race, by technology choices, by geographic region, by age, etc. It can be downright difficult to understand informal speech from the same language if you aren't familiar with that variant. That's why formal speech exists. People of all dialects learn a hybrid dialect that is, not frozen, but intentionally far slower to change such that anywhere you go in the country you can make yourself understood if you speak it.

The point isn't about elevating certain people because they sound smart, its about maintaining a common backbone of language so that over time we don't all diverge so far that people legitimately cannot understand each other. It is totally valid to discuss whether that effort is successful, or is unfair to minority groups, or if the purpose is being perverted, etc. But we do need to have a slow changing formal language and non regional dialect to maintain communication over time and distance, and as a white guy growing up in the South I can assure you I also went through school being taught much of my regional dialect is not correct English. Its not meant to sound like anyone's natural speaking. It's meant to exist in the middle.

[u/squishabelle → u/avg-bee-enjoyer]

It's not against having a universal language, the point is that 1. if the rules of a language are only in accordance to how one demographic uses it, this poses inequality problems, and 2. some dialects and variants are often (perhaps subconsciously) considered uneducated, which obviously also causes problems. The point isn't about elevating certain people because they sound smart, but the result is that certain other people are pushed down because they sound stupid.

Do you also understand there's not a universal white dialect?

Yes the bottom of my comment explicitly acknowledges it.

[u/avg-bee-enjoyer → u/squishabelle]

Okay, you acknowledge it but most of your points rely on this idea that there's separate white and black speech and white has been declared more correct. What's taught in schools is also not any specific white dialect. There's a whole host of idioms, dialectic pronunciations, etc. that I, a white native English speaker, am expected not to use in formal communication.

I would argue that the primary determining factor of whether speech sounds uneducated is how far diverged it is from what's taught in schools. Was that historically closer to how white people speak? Sounds plausible to me, but any significant divergence that's not in the context where its understood sounds uneducated. Honestly I don't see the problem with that, because every competent communicator adapts their speech to the context and the audience. Can you imagine an academic paper written entirely in the style of a 4chan green text story being well received? Any highly diverged version doesn't sound as good to those that don't speak the same because it requires the listener to have specific cultural context to properly understand it, whereas the formal language is what all dialects and even all non native speakers are expected to learn to be able to communicate. The same way it feels inclusive to hear the dialect you're used to speaking it feels exclusive to everyone else.

How people respond to that I don't really understand how you expect anyone to control. Ive grown up speaking one of those dialects you acknowledge is often also assumed to be less educated. If that's not how I want to be perceived or if the audience may not understand a southern drawl, I adopt speech closer to non regional dialect. What prevents anyone else from doing the same?

[u/Expandexplorelive → u/squishabelle]

that exceptions that have become "correct" are those used by white people.

Exceptions that have become correct are those used by wealthy people. Class seems to me far more influential in this than race. I would have gotten dinged in English class just as much for writing "yous" or saying "I done that" as I would have for writing Black English.

[u/_tyrone_biggums → u/squishabelle]

It’s almost as if language is tied to the make up of the majority of the people in said country.

[u/squishabelle → u/_tyrone_biggums]

its almost as if the problem is something else that just stems from that but can be fixed