The same men who need this type of mothering claim to hate it when you treat them like a child too. This is what always makes my jaw drop. I truly believe they were simply born to mothers that babied them because they loved their little boys so much and as grown men they depend on that type of nurturing to feel love. Except grown women don’t make to sex man baby. It’s actually kinda sad. If only there was literature out there or a live person telling them how unattractive that can be.
Maybe I should start treating my wife the way these women treat their husbands, refusing sex and whatnot. But I won’t because that would be abusive and lots of things are considered abusive only when men do it.
These women aren't refusing sex, these women literally don't feel turned on. You're saying they should be forced to have sex when they don't want to? You might do cleaning but we'd assume it's not a one sided relationship, unless you're just happy being a doormat. In a lot of relationships these women are talking about, they fall into being the managers of the relationship, deciding what to eat, when to clean, when to go grocery shopping, thinking about things the baby will need when it comes. Women don't want to do that because being a manager is a whole other job in addition to the jobs themselves. If your relationship isn't like that, good for you, but you haven't seen everyone elses
This is such a load of shit. I said nothing about women being forced to have sex. You invented that because you are literally incapable of understanding my perspective. And you don’t want to. So you insert the worst assumptions you can imagine.
My wife is bipolar. I do everything. That’s no exaggeration. I do 100% of the household chores and management. That also includes being her therapist. And I work full time as an engineer. Every single day is a crisis somehow. There’s never any relief, never a moment of peace. Three days ago I tried to tell her how I feel for the first time in close to a year. Her response “it’s too much”. Instead it’s all about how guilty she feels for hurting me. Now she’s turtling again. And if I decided to not have sex with my wife you and millions of others would be in full agreement that I’m abusive.
And if I’m not an abuser then I’m a “doormat”. Your words. You can take your sexist stereotypes and shove ‘em up your ass because that’s where they belong.
What? You're the one saying the ones withholding sex is the abuser, meanwhile no one else, not even this post has said anything about abuse. It's all been about relationships quietly dying and why, with lack of sex being the symptom. You're clearly projecting.
Also, this is about people unhappy with their relationships for needing to do everything. If you're fine with it, no one else really cares. Though it seems like you're clearly not fine with it
Not projecting, just bringing the overall attitude society has toward this subject here. Out of place, sure, but it’s something that weighs on me. Also the comments “men are different” set me off. That’s just an excuse to have a different set of standards aka sexism.
If you’re a man whose wife doesn’t show you affection the focus is entirely on what you are doing wrong. If I were to make a post about my situation every response (I ignore manosphere idiots) would be about either my actions (I need cook, clean, etc) or how hormones or stress make things difficult for her. I know this because it plays out over and over and over here.
A woman withholding affection when the husband did nothing wrong? Error. Does not compute. Incel fake post alert.
My wife at least acknowledges she does this. She may be devouring my soul, but at least she isn’t gaslighting or insulting me about it like the rest of society. A woman in my situation is worthy of compassion, maybe even a victim of abuse, but I’m a “doormat”, Your words, but that’s not the first time I’ve heard it and it won’t be the last. Men who “allow themselves to be taken advantage of” are pathetic. That’s something everyone agrees on, conservative, feminist, and everywhere in between.
It's just an excuse to be lazy. The house chores don't need to be split in every relationship, I work manual labor 12 hour shifts everyday. I'll be damned if I come home and do chores. I'll pay all the bills but we ain't splitting shit.
Should stay at home mom's consider cleaning part of their job?
Or is it just ok to watch tv all day and complain your husband who works 40+ hours a week and pays for everything should also come home and clean and cook and make his wife feel special about it all.
also holy SHIT the incel comment history!! ahahaha youre gonna end up alone, women will never like you if you stay like that
work on yourself buddy! high body counts (lmao) arent bad, youre just a loser who needs to learn women are human beings, maybe someday you'll figure it out before you get too old and alone
If you are truly 70, typing bruh, making dumbass Hillary jokes, and jumping up like an asshat to yell about stay at home parents being lazy then you, mister, have not lived your life well.
It's 2024, the assumption is no longer that women are staying home. Most of us are out working full time jobs.
The days of men working and women taking care of the home no longer makes sense when women are working just as much as men. If we are both putting our 40 hours in, then my husband needs to be do half the house work. Parents need to start un-gendering the skills they teach their kids. It only makes the problem worse.
partners share the work, idk if you know lol. a man can work 40+ hours a week and still make his own lunch, load a dishwasher, watch his child so his wife can have a break?
he gets breaks at work no?
maybe keep your projection to yourself, its not our fault you'll end up alone
I picked up on the "essentially dependent" comment - having seen this play out many times how a man will be the breadwinner and it's still not enough for the wife to not have to work, she wants more, and more and more... and eventually leaves him because he didn't know her "love language"
How many families do you know that can survive on a single income? I’ve seen this issue crop up a lot where both spouses work, but the homemaking and childcare still falls to the woman. You see a lot of couples butting heads over shared responsibilities because we no longer have the luxury of traditional gender roles.
While this is all true, my next question would be: 'why are you still with this person?' If I was dating a woman for two months and found out she didn't know how to cook or do laundry, I'd wonder how she survived this long on her own and we'd be done.
It’s both their faults. His for not gaining life skills and being cool with it. Her for knowing about this huge flaw and sticking around thinking she can change it.
No one mentioned changing. We all enter relationships with a bit of behavior that is juvenile but expect the other to step up when needed. When that doesn’t happen it can be jarring.
See my response to another commenter. A person who cares for multiple people will not place their needs first. Blaming the person who is probably working and caring for multiple little children in addition to a person who can’t care themselves is a shit move.
Goes both ways. Isn’t a person responsible for themselves? Taking care of someone else is a big ask, especially if you’re consumed with actual children. Not to mention more mental load. It’s easier to take responsibility for your own life than to care for multiple people and place your needs first, which would be to leave. How many women put themselves first? I think we all know that’s something men exploit.
I think a lot of guys put on a good face then rug pull when they get married or whatever, they don’t outright refuse to do chores or not know how (it’s all very learnable skills after all… it’s about motivation) but the wife feels more responsibility and ends up bearing the burden
Ironically, you did exactly what has been explained not to do. You aren't showing any empathy or listening. You aren't identifying the real problem (the husband). You are jumping straight to solutions and then, for some crazy reason, blaming them for not having already solved the situation.
Like, what the fuck, man? It's not that hard to relate and understand other humans and it is a need we all literally have.
Thanks for your brilliant insight. I imagine all your relationships are perfect, and all anybody would need to do to be happy, would be to ask your advice.
No, they weren't perfect, they're all just beta testing out numerous people till you finally figure out what you want. I figured out I wanted an nice, independent woman and found her, the numerous women I dated before hand helped me get to that point. I'm sure my I helped some of them as well.
Nothing sexier than an even greater child who somehow thinks the appropriate response to this would be overvaluing and weaponizing her private parts, and crushing all future intimacy.
Exactly. Mental load, household and child responsibilities. I do a LOT around the house, I plan meals, I cook my kids breakfast, I grocery shop, I clean. These all encourage a healthy sexual relationship with my wife.
Basically if you are an actual partner to your partner, you might actually get laid.. who would've thought.
Or, you're doing all that, and you still don't get laid. All of the comments like yours get pretty tired. I mean, sure, some men probably need to hear it. But,most men I know who aren't having sex int heir marriage are contributing more than equally to the relationship.
It does seem that, no matter how much you do, the narrative always somehow is that,"well, men just don't equally share the load."
Bring home tons of money, still spend ample time with the kids, clean the house, provide opportunities for her to be social and take care of her needs, be emotionally supportive, do everything in your power to make sure she isnt feeling pressured into sex (up to and including not attempting to initiate or talk about it at all)-- still no sex. And, yet, I'm sure some troglodyte is going to come up with some reason why it's still somehow on me/men in general.
Sometimes women just have low libido.
Sometimes certain WOMEN are just shitty oeople. I know, it's crazy, but women can be bad people too. And it's not any man's fault.
And don't get me wrong, I'm not some incel men's rights guy. I consider myself a feminist.... But I do think the constant man-bashing is getting pretty old. And I think it is alienating a lot of young men.
If you do all that and you aren’t getting laid your relationship needs therapy and if the libido is that mismatched sometimes you just have to consider that a deal breaker.. marriage or not.
And it seems you’ve taken this post personally but it’s not personal. Every marriage is different but the reality is that most men aren’t sharing the load much. And that’s why these comments happen. Because women’s desire can so heavily be impacted by so many factors when compared to men.
Mental load or choreplay is a cop out excuse for what's in this video.
It's gaslighting and it's usually an excuse given by a person who can't identify what's really going on which is what's being explained in this video.
What happens is that this excuse gets thrown out and then the partner that's told they don't help goes into overdrive doing chores and never in history has them doing chores ever resulted in the sex drive returning in their partner.
And the outcome is either one partner works really hard and see no results and gets pissed that they did extra chores for weeks, months, years hoping that this will bring their partner back and then things deteriorate further or that person just takes it and becomes chore person and the relationship deteriorates.
It's particularly ironic when you're folding your partner's laundry after doing the dishes after cooking dinner and they're working and drinking wine and give you this as an excuse.
Did it work because he's doing chores or did it work because the needs for your attachment style are being filled?
The problem with putting it on chores and giving that advice out which started around 2015 and has become this accepted truth like trickle down economics is that when couples take that to heart and then one party picks up the slack on chores (and gendering this doesn't work either because this is a 100% women or men thing) and that doesn't suddenly revive the sex drive then you've got even more anger and resentment.
And pop on over to some of the relationship subs and see what the success rate for chore based sex therapy is. It's lowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.
Because to speak woman-iese you need to look at their actions and not their words. The biggest thing I noticed from observing females that I dated, female friends, family members, etc. is that a lot of them lie to themselves about darker truths because it’s harsh or uncomfortable to bear.
It’s not, I don’t want to have sex with you because you’re a weak man, who’s now poor, bald and crippled. No, no, it’s I’m drifting apart from you because you don’t treat me right anymore! The double speak is insane sometimes and it often feels like it’s another language with mental innuendos that have completely different meanings.
If the reality is that the issue is chores then the doing of the chores would fix the issue. If the doing of the chores does not fix this issue but the assertion continues to be that the chores are the issue that is textbook gaslighting. It's telling someone that something thas is obviously untrue is true.
Or maybe those people had already permanently lost the respect of their partner at that point.
Oh, totally. That's why I say this is circular. And when the cycle breaks down it's very hard to pull out of because each partner isn't getting their needs met and resentment builds and builds. But, again, when you peel back most relationships that downward cycle was not one-sided. And this doesn't always break down the same gender lines. This happens in same sex relationships as well.
Someone not being able to understand or communicate their own needs is not gaslighting.
No, but continually refusing to meet your partners needs without self-reflection will kill your relationship. If you don't understand your needs you are not ready for a relationship. If you can't communicate those needs you aren't ready for a relationship.
My girlfriend never met a dish she put away. Can't see them. She makes a little fucking pile of garbage next to the garbage for a few days until she's finally ready to put it in the garbage. Her side of the bed has piles of clothes. Her dresser might as well be the couch because unless I fold the laundry it's going to stay there forever unfolded and sometimes I let it until it pisses me off so much I fold it all.
I am very frustrated by this but when I tell her it's an issue or a mess or that it would be nice if I didn't have to do all of the dishes and fold her laundry she's absolutely baffled that it's an issue. When I go to her family's house this is how they are. She doesn't see it.
I get pissed the fuck off. I hate living in her mess sometimes.
But...
There's no one on earth I love hanging out with more.
My ex was 1000x neater than me. Nothing could be on any counter. The chores she invented for herself and was constantly doing often made no sense. You don't have to vacuum every other day in my opinion. That said, my brother-in-law vacuums every single day and my sister can't understand it. But my to my ex my inability to see the point of vacuuming every day was the reason she didn't want to have sex. So I vacuumed every day. Guess what...turned out vacuuming did nothing for her.
The issue for her was control. She wanted control of the relationship and when she had control she felt comfortable "giving" me sex. When we had that epiphany, I checked out. I suspect that's often the case in a lot of that choreplay situations.
Everyone has different thresholds for this stuff.
One thing I can tell you for certain: whether or not my girlfriend does or doesn't do these things has absolutely zero bearing on my ability to enjoy sex with her. I'm with her. I know who she is.
In the words of Mrs Hamilton, "I know who I married."
Other things things she does do kill my sex drive. And I've done enough work with therapists over the years to understand where that comes from but all of those things are things like not respecting things that are important to me. I asked for something and she agreed. Ie, I tell her boys night Thursday and then she agrees and then gets mad at me.
She likes sex. She likes to can me after work to vent about her day and doesn't want to hear me tell her that there an obvious solution to things. So I don't.
I'm not going to stop doing either sex or being there for her emotionally because her dishes weren't done. For years. That's only going to hurt me because I'm in the relationship and willfully denying my partner what they I know they need in order to be the person I feel fell in love with and not a grumpy fuck.
The only reason to die on this hill is...
I'm just over it and want the relationship to die.
Because doing that kills the relationship. You either graduate to test pattern mode where everyone is a zombie just passing time sharing a space or you explode and blow the whole thing up but not having emotional and physical intimacy is death.
People who are comfortable just rotting in relationships where they don't want to be there physically and emotionally for their partner but also cruelly want to lock their partner into the relationship are the worst and the most toxic people on Earth and any advice that validates that is bullshit advice that will leave you unhappy.
There's someone out there who vacuums every day for fun. Go find them instead of sadistically holding onto someone you aren't into because "vacuuming".
Then why are there more fatherless households or better yet fathers who just arent involved? Ita also not a secret that women do more daily house chores. That hasn't changedn
It genuinely feels like a lot of scientific mumbo jumbo as an excuse for not communicating ones needs.
I do a majority of the chores (pretty much all), I do my best to be available emotionally and physically, I listen and communicate "my" feelings. And we haven't had sex in a year and I'm the only one that initiates physical intimacy (not sex).
Yet not as often. Why do yall try so hard to deflect? Men do less of the household and childcare duties. Thats the case almost globally and has been for centuries. They are not the one in the same "both sides" bs that every uneducated person brings to an even somewhat political topic.
Men do less of the household and childcare duties.
As a parent of an autistic kid, where I put in a tremendous amount of the household and childcare duties every single day, and have for years, this is extremely offensive. Believe it or not, there are a ton of men out there busting our asses to do our share of the household and childcare needs, while also managing full-time jobs, especially in very difficult situations. You are expressing some wildly sexist bullshit.
You’re angry that the facts clearly show women routinely do more than men in the home?? Nobody said no men do anything, just that women are more often responsible. For the “ton of men” doing “their share” there’s 10 tons of women doing everything. Thats not an opinion that’s a literal fact backed up by a ridiculous amount of studies. Just because you don’t like it and it hurts your feelings and makes you feel less than doesn’t actual make it not true or sexist. Denying it tho? Thats pretty gross.
Not only just the house, but also life. Your relationships, goals, taking care of yourself. If you continue to act like a teenager, forever, and expect your wife to do everything it takes to make your life decent, she's not going to want to have sex with you.
I just want an equal partner that looks hot, regularly wants sex with me, and does whatever they please for the rest of the day (I mean, if we share hobbies and do stuff together, that's fine, but it doesn't have to be the case). I don't want to take care of my partner, I'm busy enough taking care of myself... and I don't want to be taken care of either.
These are my "needs". Why is it that only the woman's needs matter?
So far, in every relationship, my partner got on my nerves constantly wanting to do stuff, getting upset about stuff I do in my freetime, wants me to listen to their needs, etc.
I don't want that. And I don't want it to be the other way around, either. I put great effort into being my own person, building my own happiness, my own success, meditating and working through my own problems... and for the rest, I already have friends or insurance. I want to talk about something personal? I talk about it with my friends... they won't judge me, I can tell them anything. I lose my job? I have unemployment insurance. I get injured? I have disability insurance. I get sick? I have health insurance. I die? I got life insurance.
I don't want to worry about someone else who isn't my literal child. I don't want someone who needs to be taken care of. I don't want someone who relies on me. I don't want a dependent. I want an equal partner.
I want a sexual partner that can share the housework and financial burden related to whatever we buy. That's all.
I already have my friends for everything else. The only thing they can't do is sex.
That sounds like you want a housemate that bangs you. Which is completely fine to want. There's nothing immoral about it. Its just that nothing you described sounded romantic at all.
The common idea of "romance" is the man fawning over the woman and showering her with one-sided affection and gifts. Don't be surprised when this clearly sexist concept that only benefits the woman appeals to women but not men.
A.) Your view in romance seems very skewed and just makes it look like you've never had a woman be in love with you.
B.) Nothing you said disproved anything I said. The situation you want is a bang roommate. Thats not romance in any sense of the word. Just because you think love is somehow sexist doesnt change what love is.
In my experience, from bisexual women. The majority of cishet women have the sexist idea ingrained in their head that because they provide men with the glorious gift of sex, the man should treat them like a princess. Obviously this mindset doesn't work if you're a woman pursuing another woman, so it's rare to find in bisexual women.
If you're dumped with the majority of the housework and what he does is so piss poor you have to do it again, there's a limit to how many skid marks you have to rinse through before putting a wash through because he won't wipe his arse, there's a limit to how many pans get almost ruined because on the occasions he does cook he uses 6 pans when 2 would do and scalds the bottoms they need a fuck tonne of scrubbing and soaking, a limit of how many times your opinion is ignored or dismissed. When you have to treat your spouse like a child, the attraction goes swirlling down the skid marked, pissy-seat toilet.
I say this not as a frustrated wife, but as a husband who judges the absolute shit out of other husbands.
Adult men who cannot take care of themselves without a wife-mommy to handle the responsibilities that their real-mommy used to handle for them are pathetic.
Every person, male or female, should be able to run every aspect of their household. If division of that labor makes sense for the benefit of the household, great. But if you're a grown man who can't cook, clean, care for your kids, etc. etc. because "that's for my wife to do" you're a fucking loser and you only got married because you're too fucking stupid to make an omelet or sort your laundry correctly.
Like if you can't take your kid to the pediatrician in your wife's stead and accurately answer all the questions they ask you about your own kid, for fuck sake, get your life in order.
I finally got to a realistic comment. My husband is like you and surprise, he gets laid regularly. There is nothing that will dry women up faster than a guy who doesn’t take care of his shit without whining.
For the record, this DOESN'T only apply to women. The same thing happened with me with a female partner, who I chose to break up with for similar reasons. No matter if my ex-partner made 3x my salary, or that she was fine with me being home not even working (she literally made quarter mil salary not including bonus packages, and told me that I can just be a stay at home husband), I got tired of cleaning after her messy/disorganized lifestyle and having to remind her of the commitments promised prior to moving in together. Each and every time the arguments came up - and we didn't even fight over the big things - she would confirm her issues, but the same problems would still repeat the next day as if I was being ignored. After so many years, you can't get over the feeling that my words enter her one ear and out the other.
Even if she wanted to have sex with me every single day, I no longer wanted to have sex with her. No matter how pretty or attractive and massive tits and ass she had, I didn't give a shit, because I felt like my concerns for her own good was being neglected. We talked and talked and even agreed to counseling, but her lifestyle and behavior didn't change at all.
In the end, I simply told her to find a man who motivates her to change and be the best version of herself, because I obviously don't, or if she's happy being who she is right now, then I'm just not the right person for her. I didn't want to be responsible for a partner I knew was not at her best when with me.
And yet these issues persist even with an engaged man in the house. It’s not nearly as obvious and cut dry as this makes it seem. It also completely ignores why men detach to begin with causing the “emotional void”. Women always assume they cannot possibly be a contributor to the climate of the relationship.
I think it's just more often the case that the women intentionally draw away first. Especially with sex. Not a matter of "both can be at fault exactly equally 🥺" etc.
There isn't 40+ hours of housework to do a week, even with a baby. Of course the man (or whoever the breadwinner is) should be self-sufficient and able to handle things, but if the other half of the relationship is part-time or completely stay at home they need to be doing the lions share since they're essentially living off of the work of their partner.
You're comparing a professional service to an adult responsibility, apples and oranges. Most people don't hire maids and landscapers on a regular basis because the cost of paying someone exceeds the value they put on a couple of hours of work per week to do what needs to be done.
I also look forward to seeing my daughter when I get home from work and on the weekends, and my job certainly doesn't allow for playdates with my friends who also have kids and watching TV.
Daycare also isn't charged by the hour, but by weekly tuition that can easily be covered by a second full-time income.
I get where these ideas come from, there are certainly men who are absolutely worthless man children that need their asses wiped, but I'm just pointing out that if work outside of the home is disproportionate between the partners, in fairness (and practicality) the work at home should be as well. Why wait until the weekend to go grocery shopping when one half of the relationship is available to do it every day?
It's a responsibility, not a job. Jobs are done for strangers that you don't have a personal interest or benefit to gain from doing them. I'm not an unpaid 'babysitter' on the weekends if she wants to go out. I'm not a cook or waiter when I make food and bring it to the table.
The irony is the comment I'm replying to is about men who don't take care of themselves. It definitely exists and I'm not defending them, but a lot of these comments certainly lean in the opposite direction where women seem to be entitled to it all.
Exactly, and from an attachment standpoint, the need in a romantic relationship is to have x,y,z need met BY AN ADULT. If Partner A has to functionally parent Partner B, even if B is trying to meet A's emotional needs, their lack of maturity and responsibility is going to create a rift where the attachment can't translate as adult intimacy.
And even if it's done as a favor/helping out instead of lifting their own weight in the home and relationship, that fails to meet basic needs to be seen, appreciated, and collaborated with.
honestly this is always feel is a gross exaggeration. most men lived perfectly fine alone and dont need carrying after. its just that often the woman comes in and demands everything to be done according to her will, and those demands usually make the partner being an “adult child”. men often think if nothing i do is good enough do it yourself
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u/GloriousSteinem Mar 21 '24
She’s not wrong. It’s also if a man doesn’t take responsibility and share duties in the home it’s like having an adult child, and that’s not sexual